Crankshaft play end and maximum tolerance

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pierodn

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Hi,
we're now going back home after attending the Norton International Rally in Cesenatico.
Following the failure occourred to my black fastback I would like to know the correct cranckshaft play end and furthermore what is the acceptable max tolerance?
 
pierodn said:
Hi,
we're now going back home after attending the Norton International Rally in Cesenatico.
Following the failure occourred to my black fastback I would like to know the correct cranckshaft play end and furthermore what is the acceptable max tolerance?
Click to expand...

I shoot for a minimum end play of .5 mm and a maximum end play of 1.5 mm.

However, I have seen them run for years with 2 mm end play.

If you run the bike hard with less than .5 mm end play, the ends of the rollers may end up discolored from heat.

Jim
 
pierodn said:
Hi,
we're now going back home after attending the Norton International Rally in Cesenatico.
Following the failure occourred to my black fastback I would like to know the correct cranckshaft play end and furthermore what is the acceptable max tolerance?
Click to expand...

pierodn,
You said your axial (assiale) movement is 1mm. Axial is the end play movement, if I am not mistaken, and from the numbers given, 1mm is about perfect. Unless you really want to, I WOULDN'T go tearing every thing down to confirm what can be assumed as good.

I really think the your stator/rotor failure stems from a clearance issue. Even though you had clearance at one time, this could have easily change during a run.

A power box failure would have simply stopped the transmission/conversion of power to the battery and NOT cause some reverse magnetism to fuse the rotor and stator.

Your failed triplex chain may have been the cause and not the symptom. As someone mentioned, if the rotor clamped to the stator, the rotor should have sheared the key.

Some new parts and due diligent on assembly is what is in order, not a complete analytical teardown.

Peter
 
comnoz said:
I shoot for a minimum end play of .5 mm and a maximum end play of 1.5 mm.
However, I have seen them run for years with 2 mm end play.
If you run the bike hard with less than .5 mm end play, the ends of the rollers may end up discolored from heat.
Jim
Click to expand...

I suppose your decimal point isn't correct, so it should be minimum end play of 0.05 mm and maximum 0.15 mm (.002" and .006")
I always aim for close to .000" for my Domiracer 500 with one piece crankshaft and Carrillo rods (max 8000tpm) never had any problems with the Superblend bearings. For a standard 3-piece crank I aim for the (corrected) figures as mentioned by Comnoz, however end play up to .015" (0.38 mm) is permitted according to factory specs.

Re: Crankshaft play end and maximum tolerance
Post by pete.v » Sat May 28, 2016 9:26 am
So, 1mm hot maybe a bit loose, but not crazy loose?

Actually 1 mm (.04") end play is in fact way too much!
 
Going off topic now!
Remember class: "1mm = 40 thou" (actually 0.03937"). So 10 thou = 0.25mm. Or, just remember that 1" = 25.4mm.

When I left school and started work as a draughtsman, Australia had just gone metric. One of my main tasks was to convert all the old drawings. Back then I could convert fractions to mm at a glance. Not any more.
 
nortonspeed said:
comnoz said:
I shoot for a minimum end play of .5 mm and a maximum end play of 1.5 mm.
However, I have seen them run for years with 2 mm end play.
If you run the bike hard with less than .5 mm end play, the ends of the rollers may end up discolored from heat.
Jim
Click to expand...

I suppose your decimal point isn't correct, so it should be minimum end play of 0.05 mm and maximum 0.15 mm (.002" and .006")
I always aim for close to .000" for my Domiracer 500 with one piece crankshaft and Carrillo rods (max 8000tpm) never had any problems with the Superblend bearings. For a standard 3-piece crank I aim for the (corrected) figures as mentioned by Comnoz, however end play up to .015" (0.38 mm) is permitted according to factory specs.

Re: Crankshaft play end and maximum tolerance
Post by pete.v » Sat May 28, 2016 9:26 am
So, 1mm hot maybe a bit loose, but not crazy loose?

Actually 1 mm (.04") end play is in fact way too much!
Click to expand...

I don't know why anyone would attempt to shim the end play down to less than .5mm.--.020" There is nothing to be gained from less end play.
The factory bikes that came equipped with superblends were usually between .040 and .080 and suffered no ill effects from it.
If you have ever spun a Norton crank in a balancer and seen how much longer it gets when the cheeks flex then you would know why a little extra end play is desirable. If your running too little endplay you will be wasting power heating the ends of the rollers. Jim
 
nortonspeed said:
comnoz said:
I shoot for a minimum end play of .5 mm and a maximum end play of 1.5 mm.
However, I have seen them run for years with 2 mm end play.
If you run the bike hard with less than .5 mm end play, the ends of the rollers may end up discolored from heat.
Jim
Click to expand...

I suppose your decimal point isn't correct, so it should be minimum end play of 0.05 mm and maximum 0.15 mm (.002" and .006")
I always aim for close to .000" for my Domiracer 500 with one piece crankshaft and Carrillo rods (max 8000tpm) never had any problems with the Superblend bearings. For a standard 3-piece crank I aim for the (corrected) figures as mentioned by Comnoz, however end play up to .015" (0.38 mm) is permitted according to factory specs.

Re: Crankshaft play end and maximum tolerance
Post by pete.v » Sat May 28, 2016 9:26 am
So, 1mm hot maybe a bit loose, but not crazy loose?

Actually 1 mm (.04") end play is in fact way too much!
Click to expand...

So you would say then 1mm is crazy loose? :)
As the manual state .005 to .015 with a ball in the timing side pre 72 seems proper, but with rollers in both side it would beg for a little latitude in this regard.

However,
In the context of this thread, I would say that, sloppy or not, 1mm end float would have little or nothing to do with the failing triplex chain or the stator to rotor relationship. Yes/no?

A simple "Amen" will do.
 
pete.v said:
So you would say then 1mm is crazy loose? :)
As the manual state .005 to .015 with a ball in the timing side pre 72 seems proper, but with rollers in both side it would beg for a little latitude in this regard.
However,
In the context of this thread, I would say that, sloppy or not, 1mm end float would have little or nothing to do with the failing triplex chain or the stator to rotor relationship. Yes/no?
A simple "Amen" will do.
Click to expand...

Well excessive end float will mis-align the primary chain during acceleration and deceleration therefor wear out the side plates of the chain that will break in the end.
 
nortonspeed said:
pete.v said:
So you would say then 1mm is crazy loose? :)
As the manual state .005 to .015 with a ball in the timing side pre 72 seems proper, but with rollers in both side it would beg for a little latitude in this regard.
However,
In the context of this thread, I would say that, sloppy or not, 1mm end float would have little or nothing to do with the failing triplex chain or the stator to rotor relationship. Yes/no?
A simple "Amen" will do.
Click to expand...

Well excessive end float will mis-align the primary chain during acceleration and deceleration therefor wear out the side plates of the chain that will break in the end.
Click to expand...

Well maybe - or a little extra side play will allow the chain pull to align itself and pull strait...

Regardless. I don't think end play had any bearing on pierodn's failure.
Maybe too tight a primary chain or a rotor that was not centered well in the stator -or just a badly made rotor.
 
comnoz said:
Maybe too tight a primary chain or a rotor that was not centered well in the stator -or just a badly made rotor.
Click to expand...
I took hobot's observation to heart and checked the chain slack when hot; it's surprising just how much tighter it becomes when heated. It doesn't make sense as the transmission floats in the aluminum primary case, but it definitely happened.

Nathan
 
Hi.
The bike still stinks of burning!
Ciao
Piero

Crankshaft play end and maximum tolerance

Crankshaft play end and maximum tolerance

Crankshaft play end and maximum tolerance

Crankshaft play end and maximum tolerance

Crankshaft play end and maximum tolerance

Crankshaft play end and maximum tolerance

Crankshaft play end and maximum tolerance
 
triumph2 said:
Towner said:
Hi,

here you are:
crankshaft-end-play-t8587.html#p92676

comnoz said:
About .004 to .015 is acceptable
Click to expand...

This is max. 3.8 mm if I got it right.

Ralf
Click to expand...
.004" is approximately .1mm, .015" is .38mm. The all important decimal point.
Click to expand...

OK, ... :oops:

But as far as I can remember mine has about 2mm and that maybe still the factory setting.

Edit: I will measure it next time I open the primary case. :roll:
 
Hi Piero,

that looks more like a problem with the electrics. I think there is no relation to the crankshaft endplay. You wrote that you had no endplay before and now it is 1mm. If the crankcase looks good with no cracks I would do nothing concerning the endplay. Maybe you never find the reason. Concerning the play between rotor and stator, I adjust it by filing the holes of the stator (enlarge the holes). Bending the studs is usually not very successful.

Ralf
 
Towner said:
Hi Piero,

that looks more like a problem with the electrics. I think there is no relation to the crankshaft endplay. You wrote that you had no endplay before and now it is 1mm. If the crankcase looks good with no cracks I would do nothing concerning the endplay. Maybe you never find the reason. Concerning the play between rotor and stator, I adjust it by filing the holes of the stator (enlarge the holes). Bending the studs is usually not very successful.

Ralf
Click to expand...

Hi Ralf,
i mean.
Me too fear an electrical problem.
The stator was 3 phases new Lucas and the rotor Lucas new too, with a Boyer Brandsen power box.
I will check well the end play and if the clearance is almost correct i will replace the 1 phase stator and rotor, will threw the power box and i will replace the old stock rectifier.
But i will not buy a new Lucas stator/rotor, i will keep these part old from a still unusable 850.
I fear the new Lucas stuff now!
I can read Trispark stator would be good (but the roto?).
Ciao
Piero
 
Hi Piero,

i just measured the crankshaft endplay on my Commando (for my peace of mind) - it is less than 1mm. But I think 1 mm is still ok. Have you measured it correctly or is it still an estimation ?

I am not very familiar with the Boyer power box. I have installed the Podtronics on both of my bikes with (new) Lucas 3 Phase stators. With the Podtronics you don't need the old rectifier. I never had a problem with the Lucas stuff.

Ralf
 
Towner said:
Hi Piero,

i just measured the crankshaft endplay on my Commando (for my peace of mind) - it is less than 1mm. But I think 1 mm is still ok. Have you measured it correctly or is it still an estimation ?

I am not very familiar with the Boyer power box. I have installed the Podtronics on both of my bikes with (new) Lucas 3 Phase stators. With the Podtronics you don't need the old rectifier. I never had a problem with the Lucas stuff.

Ralf
Click to expand...
Hi Ralph.
Only an estimation.
Sorry, i was in wrong, my powerbox is a Podtronics 3 phase too.
Please, could you post or write the wiring system connection?
I wish to be sure i connected well mine.
Ciao
Piero
 
pierodn said:
Towner said:
Hi Piero,

i just measured the crankshaft endplay on my Commando (for my peace of mind) - it is less than 1mm. But I think 1 mm is still ok. Have you measured it correctly or is it still an estimation ?

I am not very familiar with the Boyer power box. I have installed the Podtronics on both of my bikes with (new) Lucas 3 Phase stators. With the Podtronics you don't need the old rectifier. I never had a problem with the Lucas stuff.

Ralf
Click to expand...
Hi Ralph.
Only an estimation.
Sorry, i was in wrong, my powerbox is a Podtronics 3 phase too.
Please, could you post or write the wiring system connection?
I wish to be sure i connected well mine.
Ciao
Piero
Click to expand...

Hi Piero,

the axial movement often looks enormous, you have to measure it.

The installation of the Podtronic is no big deal. The 3 wires of the stator must be connected to the 3 yellow wires of the powerbox. The red and black wire of the box is connected to the batterie. Thats all. Zener diode and rectifier must be removed.

http://www.podtronics.net/instructions.htm

Ralf
 
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