Coronavirus

xbacksideslider said:

Do you want crony information? Corrupted information?

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As you said how the deaths are to be documented is right there in the CDC instructions. Therefor we all know how the numbers came about, doesn't sound corrupt or crony to me. More like everybody talking from the same page.
I do agree we all have our own biases.

Maybe you miss the point?

CDC counts pneumonia deaths associated with Flu as pneumonia.

CDC counts pneumonia deaths associated with COVID-19 as COVID -19.

That exaggerates COVID compared to FLU and a NEW rule does that.

Why?

There has to be an explanation.

Did the Flu just go away?

Are NoNE of thes CIVI-19 deaths actually Flu?

How many deaths from flu this year?

Your questions are valid. I too would like to know what are the answers. What I am suggesting is since covid-19 is not an ordinary flu there would be very good reasons to separate out covid-19 to help cure & prevent it from spreading. I have no doubt the common flu is still here killing more people than covid-19 but the common flu is a known entity and the medical profession knows how to deal with it.

Yes, I agree. It IS worse than the flu. BUT that is an opinion. It is an opinion, based on what I read and hear from the self same government health bureaucracies that NOW we find are tweaking the numbers.

Imposing a double standard that beyond doubt exaggerates the lethality of COVID over the common Flu.

Time will tell.

Public health authorities all over the world, in this their shining hour, STILL do not know, anywhere except South Korea, what percentage of the total population is infected.

Not knowing the fraction’s denominator, while knowing a changing numerator (number sick or number dead), they claim to know percentages of the total?

Pneumonia is a consequence of fluid build up in lungs. We typically hear it being bacterial or viral in "nature" , which is the rational by which it can be treated with antibiotics for a bacterial cause or an antiviral is one exists for a viral cause. Influenza virus can lead to viral pneumonia or in some cases ultimately lead to opportunistic bacterial pneumonia. There are various tests to determine best treatments. None of this has been worked out for the novel SARS CoV-2 virus and what are its limits of disease causation. We know people are getting a severe respiratory syndrome and testing positive the virus in a significant number of cases. Like many viral diseases, its not the virus that actually does cellular damage leading to death. It is the bodies own responses and attack infected cells and causing tissue damage. When that goes too far, we get build of of fluid which can become infected by bacteria or not. Sometimes just the immune response is sufficient to ultimately destroy enough lung function that the person dies. Changes to death certificate guidelines are just reflecting this evolving understanding of a new human pathogen, not some bizarro world conspiracy to gain some unnamed power over the populace.

READ the CDC’s language that I quoted for you. Don’t believe it? Read the link that I cited next to it.

Then, read the blue and white National Bureau of Standards document that I posted a picture of. That document IS the change of rules for any MD who signs a Death Certificate.

The fix is in.

The federal health bureaucracy will not allow this crisis to go to waste.

Make hay while the sun shines.

Im not an expert on how morbidity and mortality numbers are tallied. Ill leave that to the professionals. See the difference is I actually have trust in these folks and dont go looking for sinster intent in all the weeds.

Heres a debunk of your little theory:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wu...d-up/507-41f555ea-c051-423d-8f06-209d34aa5636

"Sometimes it isn’t clear how various things relate to one another at death,” Dr. Aiken said. “Certain judgments will be wrong. In the example given, (stroke with COVID-19), it would be important to know if that individual had symptoms of COVID-19. If so, symptoms such as dehydration from COVID-19, or inability to take medications for blood pressure control, may put that person at risk for a stroke. In that case, the cause of death might be listed as 'stroke,' but COVID-19 could be contributory. There is also emerging evidence that COVID-19 infection may have unexpected effects on blood vessels, and circulation, making infected people susceptible to stroke."

xbacksideslider said:

Make hay while the sun shines.

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Exactly what Trump and his cronies (aka crooks) are doing.

Tornado said:

Im not an expert on how morbidity and mortality numbers are tallied. Ill leave that to the professionals. See the difference is I actually have trust in these folks and dont go looking for sinster intent in all the weeds.

Heres a debunk of your little theory:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wu...d-up/507-41f555ea-c051-423d-8f06-209d34aa5636

"Sometimes it isn’t clear how various things relate to one another at death,” Dr. Aiken said. “Certain judgments will be wrong. In the example given, (stroke with COVID-19), it would be important to know if that individual had symptoms of COVID-19. If so, symptoms such as dehydration from COVID-19, or inability to take medications for blood pressure control, may put that person at risk for a stroke. In that case, the cause of death might be listed as 'stroke,' but COVID-19 could be contributory. There is also emerging evidence that COVID-19 infection may have unexpected effects on blood vessels, and circulation, making infected people susceptible to stroke."

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You can't logic someone out of an opinion they didn't logic themselves into. Don't waste your breath.

Tornado said:

Im not an expert on how morbidity and mortality numbers are tallied. Ill leave that to the professionals. See the difference is I actually have trust in these folks and dont go looking for sinster intent in all the weeds.

Heres a debunk of your little theory:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wu...d-up/507-41f555ea-c051-423d-8f06-209d34aa5636

"Sometimes it isn’t clear how various things relate to one another at death,” Dr. Aiken said. “Certain judgments will be wrong. In the example given, (stroke with COVID-19), it would be important to know if that individual had symptoms of COVID-19. If so, symptoms such as dehydration from COVID-19, or inability to take medications for blood pressure control, may put that person at risk for a stroke. In that case, the cause of death might be listed as 'stroke,' but COVID-19 could be contributory. There is also emerging evidence that COVID-19 infection may have unexpected effects on blood vessels, and circulation, making infected people susceptible to stroke."

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Tornado

Thank you for having the integrity to address things I actually said, or the what is said in sources that I have cited or quoted or linked to.

That acknowledgement of your good faith made, I turn to the link you provided.

As is the case with many “fact check” sites, they purport to answer some question or assertion but do a switheroo and answer an assertion that was not made.

That is what happened with your Google link. That site set up a rhetorical “straw man”

Here is a quote from the article you linked:

“ . . . But Dr. Sally Aiken, the President of the National Association of Medical Examiners said it’s unlikely.

She called the claim a conspiracy theory. She said, “medical examiners and coroners are not part of a conspiracy of death certification to classify all deaths as caused by COVID-19.” . . . .”


Notice NO ONE EVER said that. No one said there was a conspiracy. She makes a “straw man” argument.


What I said - several times - is that the National Standards Bureau
recently changed the rules for how a death is classified. I also quoted the CDC itself, explains how COVId-19 cases are required to be recorded differently than Flu cases.

Deal with that fact, the double standard, please.

NPeteN said:

You can't logic someone out of an opinion they didn't logic themselves into. Don't waste your breath.

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Another smear Pete. Not an argument. What a waste.

How about you actually make an honest argument - what about it? Rebut those TWO federal documents. Two documents from CDC and Bureau of Standards.

xbacksideslider said:

Another smear Pete. Not an argument. What a waste.

How about you actually make an honest argument - what about it? Rebut those TWO federal documents. Two documents from CDC and Bureau of Standards.

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Just to clear things up. No one has ever died from Corona virus. Everyone dies from heart failure. So the whole Corona virus thing is just a big lie.

xbacksideslider said:

Tornado

Thank you for having the integrity to address things I actually said, or the what is said in sources that I have cited or quoted or linked to.

That acknowledgement of your good faith made, I turn to the link you provided.

As is the case with many “fact check” sites, they purport to answer some question or assertion but do a switheroo and answer an assertion that was not made.

That is what happened with your Google link. That site set up a rhetorical “straw man”

Here is a quote from the article you linked:

“ . . . But Dr. Sally Aiken, the President of the National Association of Medical Examiners said it’s unlikely.

She called the claim a conspiracy theory. She said, “medical examiners and coroners are not part of a conspiracy of death certification to classify all deaths as caused by COVID-19.” . . . .”


Notice NO ONE EVER said that. No one said there was a conspiracy. She makes a “straw man” argument.


What I said - several times - is that the National Standards Bureau
recently changed the rules for how a death is classified. I also quoted the CDC itself, explains how COVId-19 cases are required to be recorded differently than Flu cases.

Deal with that fact, the double standard, please.

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Wrong

Dr. Aiken was addressing the claims being made on many social media sites. It is basically a level headed response to those claim. Ill add that you have claimed repeatedly these gov'nt organizations are "making hay while sun shines" , not letting a crisis go unused. You have not shown how anyone org actually benefits from such inflation of numbers, nor have you shown the new guidelines distort reality in any meaningful way. The reality outlined by Aiken is there is most likely a huge undercount of cases and deaths.

I am NOT a conspiracy theorist Tornado, but I’ll pick up your remark...

IMHO, it is distinctly possible that governments and authorities want to ramp up the fear. And not for any sinister reason, it could simply be their best attempts to get us to comply with the lockdown measures.

Here in the U.K. there are pictures and stories of people breaking the measures, sometimes these stories are over reactions (surely someone out hiking in the hills alone IS isolated?!) but there are of stories of group picnics, house parties, etc even today.

The argument used against hiking/boating/fishing etc here is that they don't want the emergency services unnecessarily drawn out of their isolation to rescue those who get it wrong.

Whoopsies:

Small Chloroquine Study Halted Over Risk of Fatal Heart Complications

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.html

Tornado said:

Whoopsies:

Small Chloroquine Study Halted Over Risk of Fatal Heart Complications

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.html

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Fast Eddie said:

I am NOT a conspiracy theorist Tornado, but I’ll pick up your remark...

IMHO, it is distinctly possible that governments and authorities want to ramp up the fear. And not for any sinister reason, it could simply be their best attempts to get us to comply with the lockdown measures.

Here in the U.K. there are pictures and stories of people breaking the measures, sometimes these stories are over reactions (surely someone out hiking in the hills alone IS isolated?!) but there are of stories of group picnics, house parties, etc even today.

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My Daughter returned home late last night from a long day working in ICU, her face says it all. Wards nearing capacity and peak not yet reached we are being told. Anyone making the situation worse in any way should be ashamed of themselves.

ntst8 said:

The argument used against hiking/boating/fishing etc here is that they don't want the emergency services unnecessarily drawn out of their isolation to rescue those who get it wrong.

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Yes, that’s a good point.