Contact Breakers vs ballast smoke

Trixie Combat all by the book but for her minimized customized loom
prior to me and once working fine, now has me both confounded and
scared. Only the ignition and headlight and indicators need attention,
I think.

Hot battery jerked out goat crushed SV650, only once tried to touch
reversed -grd polarity but nothing smoked when +earthed. Power reached
the wire to the ballast resistor and responded to kill button, so afixed to
ballast. This brought power to each coil terminal and one side of each
breaker contact. I double checked Wesley's initial timing by getting
DS jug on comp stroke, with sister valves unseated. Checked lead from
that coil to breaker to see it closed so turned advance to see it open
and close - then looked at crank degree marks to it at 31' close enough
to start with a Combat back fire then retard till don't 28'. OK so far.

Few minutes into this dozenth checking of points conduction/breaking, DS
light dimmed 1/2, TS full white. Jiggled therminals to coils seemed to brighten
an instant then dim. Taggged kill a bunch and brithened again, then same
dim on/off. V-meter showed 12 v up to basllast, 6v after at coils and points,
hm, felt ballast warming so shut off to cool..

Cooled, 12v everywhere bright, tested a grounded light on CB terminal lit
up till points break, but it never came on and kicking over gave not plug
sparks. While doubting my logic the light dimmed at points and saw
curl of smoke coming off basllast so shut down. I'd hoped to find power
through points till they open to dump coils into plug. I'm confused, may
be missing correct point test contact as way 3:30 am by then. Coils stayed
cold as 35'F evening suffered to have a ride by Saturday for festival.

Hand holding scolding and advice sought, especially about 5 min worth
key on heating ballast so much, don't remember that bad prior just coils
warming,

Btw before each Trixie episode there's been mower deck recovery too, with puller schattering just starring at it after heating the sleeve being removed, so took it apart at other end which crumbled once released to wait for parts and do it some more. Only belt setting remains to put down the tick and chigger invasion, then back to Trixie smoke with extinguisher at ready.


Steven 'ugh-hobot' Shiver

Try this as described in the manual -

Measure the battery voltage with a DC voltmeter.

Connect the DC voltmeter black lead to the RH Contact Breaker points terminal and the red lead to earth.

Hold the contact points open. Switch on the ignition. The DC meter should show the same voltage as the battery.

Close the contact points. The voltage should fall to zero. Repeat this for the LH CB points.

The Ballast Resistor will get hot in normal circumstances. Check for firm dry earth connections. It may help to replace the Ballast Resistor.

No need to kick the bike to look for spark at the plugs. Turn on the ignition. Sit down in front of the timing cover and with the plugs laid on the head, use a small plastic or wood tool to flick the points open. There will be a small spark at the points and hopefully a bigger one at the plugs.

Mick - or just dump the whole lot and fit a electronic unit!

Thats the plodding clarity I needed to get back at in and not go in smoke rings.
As it did not spark opening the contacts, even after cleaning/sanding them, I must suspect them. Wes today said he went screwy till peckering with points one of the contact pads just feel off. Point being even if they look perfect and attached it possible not to conduct. Thanks for ballast normal temp as hot. In non electric start it allows better kick starting with a low or no battery. Trixie last set up kicked off on 5-6 volts. Having been here before in the end some times nothing for it but switch and substitute item by item and hope not two items in a row given the same symptoms. Some light left so mower deck and belt install then my-our irresponsible wasteful carbon polluting dangerous hobby gets attention.

Sometimes oil can get on the ballast resistor if sitting around in a box during a rebuild and it will emit a brief puff of smoke as it burns off when first energized. Nothing to worry about. Clouds of smoke yes worry about it.

Ah the comforting advice of seasoned ballast runners. Yes just a small whisp as you describe but freaked me after having seem that first hint before, then whole length of wire burnt up. I'd not noticed before on much much much much longer key on farting with Trixie ignition on prior recoveries. I was both relieved and horrified when Wes told me he'd had point the looked intact but failed to conduct. ugh. I've got everything to total replace as new points system adv mech but would rather not use that up till next decade. Will be out at it again tonight with more insights and steps to take.

Yep just as I thought, hit next expected unexpected show stopper. Keyed on with forum instilled confidence to wait out the ballast vapor burn off while checking sure enough no current beyond ballast, then smoke seemed to increase, hm, what a classic image, then noticed its wasn't oil smell but paint smell. Peering and peering and peering with flash light for the source, turned light off - then saw the top of ballast glowing like a cigarette lighter! oh ugh

Keyed off before a fire. Photo's later, new ballast later yet. Didn't know ballast could fail so dangerously.
I bought brass exhingisher for Ms Peel, think I'll shop for another now.

Did get terminals on charger wires and put a couple inch section in rear brake switch lead, mysteriously missing an inch of copper snatched out along with half diameter of insullation straddling the gap. What ever got it had to go through pretty tough spiral wrap and hardened layers of electrical tape first yet didn't pull terminal off.

Hobot,

That does not sound like a ballast problem to me, that sounds like a shorted coil or wires touching in the area of the coils that shouldn't.

Ballast resistors are pretty basic pieces of electronics.

All wire has resistance. The ballast resistor is made of of reasonably resistive wire, generally housed in a ceramic casing.

Generally speaking when a ballst resistor shits a kitten, they will be open circuit, broken, does not allow current to flow.

Check the terminals of the coils are not touching the cases or frame ( would it be rude to suggest checking they are wired correctly ? ).

Are both ballast resistor heating up ?, or only one ?, are the contacts opening and closing ?, are all the insulators on the contacts in place ?.

Do you have a multimeter ?, if you do, put the multi meter into OHMS mode, disconnect the wire and check the resistance of the coils across the two bolt type terminals, 12 volt coils should measure about 3.6 ohms, 6 volt coils should measure about 1.8 ohms.

I rest on your face.

The resistor MUST be heatsinked to the coil bracket. I haven't looked at one in a while but IIRC the ballast has a metal band around it for mounting. It should never get hot enough to smoke.

Normal wiring is from battery (kill switch) to the ballast, then to both coils. Both sets of points never close at the same time. Each contact closes and opens before the other. With neither set closed you'll get 12V (open circuit) at the junction between ballast and coils. With either points set closed you'll get about 6V there, the 12V is split between the ballast resistor and one coil. If your points are way out of adjustment and both sets are closed, the current through the ballast will exceed its rating.

Gotta have the condenser pack (dual capacitors) wired also, else spark will be very weak.

Be aware that when contact breakers open the voltage across them rises to a couple hundred volts for an instant... enough to give you a nasty bite if you're unfortunate enough to be touching them then.

hobot, If you need a ballast I got one you can have for shipping . Let me know.

Phil

Josh, I'd removed the whole coil pack intact w/o disturbing its prior working connections. I get into the art work of routing to last and not rub, but will un hook and look piece by piece and testing shorts and resistance.

Trixie has a single ballast and its constructed with a metal band and mount terminals on top, the bottom is exposed ceramic with two blade terminals.
The red glow was on top, the bottom was hot but not finger burning.
Wes did the positioning mounting as simple job while I dealt with something, but he's very alert to all the mistakes and errors in Norton and Trunips. I've seen cracked ballasts not paint burning ones. Must find reason, must fine reason...

Check the terminals of the coils are not touching the cases or frame -checked!
rude to suggest checking they are wired correctly - yes and checked!
Are both ballast resistor heating up ?, - '72's have one ballast.
Are the contacts opening and closing ? - yep.
Are all the insulators on the contacts in place - yes and through me off trying to test on brass their brass mount bolts as isolated properly.

Check the resistance of the coils across the two bolt type terminals, 12 volt coils should measure about 3.6 ohms, 6 volt coils should measure about 1.8 ohms - OK this I ain't done yet, thanx for ohm values.


Dave, appreciated review of the current paths. - Below is why I got 6V eh...
With neither set closed you'll get 12V (open circuit) at the junction between ballast and coils. With either points set closed you'll get about 6V there,

With either points set closed you'll get about 6V there, the 12V is split between the ballast resistor and one coil. If your points are way out of adjustment and both sets are closed, the current through the ballast will exceed its rating.
- Hm will double check points not both closed at once and check gaps spot on, but ain't touched that adj. The kicker is these points only ran 3 wks after last recovery so not exactly used up sloppy.
Any who you confirm my thought somehow points shorting current and focus there - after getting a new ballast or two- just to be safe substituting.

Phil, I was hoping someone had a useless ballast to spare. Yes send it on
and I'll shoot back cash to cover. I've seen a couple of styles of them and maybe the one on now it scabbed off an old mower to tractor.
Work address all methods deliver to.
Steve Shiver
5063 Hwy 21
KIngston, AR 72742

Steve,
Been there, done that , seen the smoke

I'm running a points system with 6 V coils and a ballast resistor.
2-3 seasons ago I had intermittent ignition problems (verified by using a strobe so I could see it was ignition related).
Had great difficulties to understand what the problem was. Measured the entire system and found nothing wrong with it.
I was totally confused!

At the end a got suspicious about the ballast resistor but could not measure or see anything wrong with it.
During the testing I noticed that the engine was running OK if I removed the ballast resistor and left it hanging in the wires. Re-installed again, bad running back again and this time the ballast resistor heated up quickly and produced the classic Lucas smoke

I replaced the ballast resistor with a spare and everything was great again and has been so since.
To be honest I never understood what went wrong with the ballast resistor and caused the smoke but when replaced the problem went away so I was happy again

Cheers,
Per

Oh man Per, I'm so happy-sad you fought this fault out prior to me. Phil here has offered to send me a spare ballast - so hang fire till then and can hook up head light in mean time.

I'm a last restort people fixer and know I can not trust any local symptom as site of the cause. So much so that I often tell people with pain or numb areas, that everyone else exams and give some fancy name too but fails to improve treating locally --
That its as smart as my dog looking sniffing at my finger pointing at the rabbit in the grass or coon in the tree making the mess. Nortons can be like that too.

Steve, Ballast is on the way just mailed it out. Would you happen to have a NM.18102 rocker thrust washer and a NM18103 rocker spring washer that you dont need? If you do just send it and skip the shipping.


Would greatly appreciate it.

Phil

I might have those as Ms Peel had them removed for machined hi rpm spacers instead. IF not here then Michael Starkey of British Toys, who did this mod for me should still have on hand. Thanx from Trixie and me for your aid to live it up while we can.

I think you have the wires going to the points shunting to ground all the time. The connection at the points has an insulator do hicky that allows connection only to the point arm spring. This facilitates the points doing the make and break of the circuit through the coil primary. If not installed correctly or missing all together you will have uninterrupted power flow through the coils to ground and the ballast will definitely get over heated. On old bikes that have had their ignition switch left on inadvertently over time, or miss wired, one often finds the coil power feed line in the main loom has fried the insulation. Check it out.

Definitely on my list to check Ace, makes as much sense than just me poking around frowning while blowing smoke away. Thank goodness cavemen still around that know how to make fire striking rocks.

Fast Service Phil, two types of ballasts arrived intact. Cool. Trixie has the same kind as the exposed one. Will soon take it apart and reconstruct piece by piece check each function as I go. Will dig about to see if the rocker parts stored here.
Been through 3 head rebuilds so 3 heads on hand but a few yrs ago so don't know my left over inventory yet.

Remember to set the points with the breaker cam in the fully advanced position :mrgreen:

Nice weimeraner aceace !

Steve, Did you ever get your ballast sorted out? Went camping for a week need to catch up on form. I hope the condenser pack helps. Let me know if Trixie survives the transplant.

Phil

Yes Sir Phil I did and it worked as intended and just in time too as my helper only had Sunday free then leaves state for a week. The smoked ballast resistor coil appeared blackened - yours was still metal colored. I believe I have the rocker spacers to trade but ain't found which tin box/can the spare head parts stored in yet, but will today. Issue was the 2 coils were wired in series for a Boyer so found a path to earth no matter which point was open or closed.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpRANiHTDZo[/video]

Rest of how yesterday/Sunday went is under Trixie 4th Rebuild heading. I don't think Norton were meant to be worked on in depth single handed but a team or crew. Here's some joyous sound track, still not dialed in or sealed up and not let idle at all but a few turns d/t concern of old cam new lifters beak in -- but when I did she sounded like a steady 400 rpm before I cut power -- d/t vomiting spindle cover oil. Sealed that last pm so will get her road worthy this week then run around with a stolen tag then register and tag and insure next month and exposure to road life dangers again.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmiZ0QI18ks[/video]