Compression ratio (2021)

mean gene

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Sooo have read several threads about compression ratio. But what is the limit a standard head, gasket, cylinder barrel with stand. Real life 11:1??? BSA ran it in their Lighting Rockets. Have ran Harley with some high compression pistons And you reach for too much and the studs pull out of case. Looking to hot rod a 750 and if I'm going to bore I might as well up the compression. I run aviation fuel in most of my old stuff so good gas won't be the problem. Kick starting is never a problem, once you learn the little Norton dance.
 
I had a buddy who tried 12:1 in a BSA and had overheating issues.

I would limit CR to 10.5:1 in a road bike.

Slick
 
i run 11.75 in a triumph 650 LSR machine. VP 109 octane.

i have various issues but overheating is not one of them, even idling five or ten minutes waiting to run. but i dont run in very hot places either.

no mechanical problems with stock barrels and studs. solid copper head and base gaskets.
 
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All depends what fuel you have available.
And what cam you’re using.
And what kind of bike you’re wanting to end up with.

The stock Combat had 10:1. But it had a race cam.

Many have advised a max of 9 or 10 to 1 when this has been asked before.

I kinda screwed up when I built my engine (was aiming for lower, but missed) and am therefore running 11:1 in a 920 on pump fuel here in the U.K. with ZERO issues. BUT...

1. I run a tight squish which definitely helps with this topic.

2. I use 97-99 RON fuel which is 93-94 in US numbers I believe.

3. I’m running a Maney race cam.
 
Just my experience with a 750 running 10:1. It's a '71, so was originally 9:1. Milled the head .040 and ported for 32mm carbs to Combat spec
Started with dual Mikunis and then over to 932 Amals in the '90's. Mikunis had great top end, but needed fine tuning to overcome hard starting and cold idle.
Left cam stock, which was fine for performance. It was a little harder to kick, but I upgraded to a longer kickstart lever ala Dunstall. MK3 lever or the aftermarket
foldable lever would improve over 750 era lever.
Overall, a worthwhile upgrade. Performance and throttle response improved. My stock 850 has nowhere near the throttle response that the 750 has, but lower compression, heavier flywheel and 20 tooth gearbox sprocket play a large role in that difference. I still plan increasing the CR in the 850 when it's time to do engine maintenance.
Due to the cylinder base mounting of a 750, I would limit CR to 10:1 for high performance street.
 
Most do not realize that CR is not simply the difference in stroke volume and chamber volume, but the cam has it's effect. A fast cam wil result in lower actual compression as the valves are open longer and compression starts to build up when both are closed. Also chamber shape is an important aspect. Sharp edges will result in a rougher running engine, smoothening them a bit makes it possible to run higher compression without issues. And the mentioned squish is an important factor to prevent knocking as the mixture is mixed better. CR is not everything. It's a matter of balance. Sometimes a bit lower compression and more advanced ingnition can be a better performing machine that stays way cooler, idles and starts better. Talking about CR you have to take all these factors into consideration.
 
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Thanks I know there are many factors, cam being one. Sifton used to make compression building cams, low lift and overlap for harleys This engine will get complete redo. Just looking for limit before part failure. More out of curiosity then anything else. Everyone agrees factory rods are ok if polished and the RPM's are reasonable. I plan on cam and head work. I know I can't beat the Jap boys but I can surly give Harleys hell in 1/8 mile
 
The best combustion conditions are a balance between about four factors - comp. ratio, ignition advance, fuel octane ratio and comp.ratio. Within reason it does not matter what the comp.ratio ends up as , because you tune to suit it. I would not try to go above 11 to 1 comp. ratio when using normal petrol, but it might be OK with avgas. If you change the comp.ratio, to be higher, you might use slightly less ignition advance and jet slightly richer. In the end, if you get it all correct, the result is probably the same, regardless of what comp. ratio you use.
 
Your pistons may also require review. Depending on year, pistons from the early Commandos to mid '71 could fracture at the oil ring grove if you rev this engine to the limit frequently. The pistons had slots cut in the oil ring grove. Later pistons are fine.
It would be good to update your profile to let us know what year your Commando is.
 
NIK said:
Most do not realize that CR is not simply the diffence in stroke volume and chamber volume, but the cam has it's effect. A fast cam wil result in lower actual compression

Compression ratio is not a difference or even a “diffence.”

It’s a geometric ratio. It is the ratio of the total volume of cylinder and combustion chamber at BDC, to the volume at TDC.

Late inlet valve closing reduces compression pressure at low rpm, but does not change the compression ratio.
 
If you raise the comp. ratio and use more fuel, theoretically you should get more power. But often what happens in practice is different.
 
Compression ratio is not a difference or even a “diffence.”

It’s a geometric ratio. It is the ratio of the total volume of cylinder and combustion chamber at BDC, to the volume at TDC.

Late inlet valve closing reduces compression pressure at low rpm, but does not change the compression ratio.
All a matter of rhetorics and I corrected the spelling mistake in case someone notices. My point is all affect each other. In many cases, engine builders raise the static CR when a faster cam is mounted to compensate a loss in dynamic CR.
 
Here's the Wallace Cr calculator. I gave the stock 750 45 HP on the tire and then bumped the compression to 10 to one, no other changes.
Hang on!
 
I really appreciate all the information. But at what point do Norton parts begin to fail. Are the head and cylinder that good a design that if I run 12:1, head gasket and stud breakage doesn't happen?? If I supercharge what's going to fail? What's the weakest link. This is going to be a short run bike not built for the long haul.
 
I really appreciate all the information. But at what point do Norton parts begin to fail. Are the head and cylinder that good a design that if I run 12:1, head gasket and stud breakage doesn't happen?? If I supercharge what's going to fail? What's the weakest link. This is going to be a short run bike not built for the long haul.
This is my take on the question of parts failure in the Commando engine, based on years of racing them. The biggest cause of engine failures from mechanical breakage isn't so much the compression ratio or horsepower as it is rpm. The usual mechanical failures on a Commando race bike from regular high rpm usage are crankshafts, crankcases, and connecting rods breaking. In essence, the crankshaft flexes and eventually cracks, the cases crack through the drive side main bearing bore, and the rods fatigue, crack, and break from lots of force cycles as the piston changes direction. The most significant forces causing all that are proprtional to the square of the rpm, so really get nasty much above normal red-line rpm. These failures used to be fairly common on race Commandos, but the availability of aftermarket parts really helped in that area. I had all the above problems with stock parts, but never broke a billet crankshaft, Carrillo rod, or Maney crankcase. They also occur sometimes on street bikes, but not nearly as often. I've always assumed those were cases of folks who regularly over-revved them, but some might also be a result of poor quality control at the factory. Hard to know for sure.

Higher compression does increase the loads on top end fasteners, and probably increases the risk of head gasket failure, but has nothing like the impact of over-revving. The real risk of damage from high CR, as many have already pointed out, is from detonation if your fuel quality is not up to the engine's demands. I've run as high as 12.3:1 in a 750, standard stroke, race Commando with no issues from the higher CR, but that was with race cam and high octane race gas. I have run 10:1 on the street, but it can be iffy. You do have to be careful in your fuel choice, as well as ignition timing and carb jetting. Still, it seems to work for quite a few Norton owners. I've settled on 9.5:1 as my target for normal street Commando. Even that can be risky with poor fuel on a hot desert day at freeway speeds. or up a long hill.

On the other hand, if you're only running avgas, and don't encounter the extreme environmental conditions, you can probably live with a higher CR, say 11:1. Above that, it just gets mechanically more difficult to raise the CR in a 750, unless you choose to use a high dome piston, which isn't a great choice for the Commando head design.

Anyhow, it's just my humble opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

Ken
 
Thanks I value your "humble" opinion. With Harley the top end is the weak point now I understand Nortons weaknesses. Good clamping design between head and cylinder, flex crank and case weakness thanks to all
 
Thanks I value your "humble" opinion. With Harley the top end is the weak point now I understand Nortons weaknesses. Good clamping design between head and cylinder, flex crank and case weakness thanks to all
That is a very good humble opinion.
When you raise the comp. ratio, it has the same effect on combustion conditions as increasing the ignition advance or leaning-off the jetting. Because most Commandos use Amal carbs, under normal circumstances the jetting is probably slightly too rich. When you raise the comp ratio, you probably move the balance in the correct direction to get more power, if you don't change the jetting.
It is very rare for an increase in power to pull the studs out of the crankcases on any motor. Triumph 650s have been known to pull the backs out of their crankcases. But my 850 Commando goes fast on methanol with no problems so far. I always try to change up below 7000 RPM, but often see 7,500 RPM.I saw one Triumph Trident motor which had pulled the back out of itself, but it was on 14 to 1 comp. on methanol.
Probably the only way a Commando motor can destroy its barrel mounting, is through the effect of the torque reaction pulling the top of the motor - vibration.
 
Thanks I value your "humble" opinion. With Harley the top end is the weak point now I understand Nortons weaknesses. Good clamping design between head and cylinder, flex crank and case weakness thanks to all
so DON’T over rev it!!!
 
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