Commando -vs- Triton

I feel a bit sad that I sold my old Triton. A guy in the next town has it now, and it looks as though I might get to ride it again. When I was racing it, I never got to ride it against other 500cc four strokes. These days in historic racing there is a class for it, and I still know how to ride it. In the old days (1973 etc.) the races were full of super bikes and two strokes - I only managed to blitz them once, and then only for a lap. They probably decided to take pity on me, and give me a head start.

Love that photo, a couple back - it is really lovely.

I don't think it's possible to get the unit motor correct in the featherbed frame. Most of the pre-unit Triumph 650s and 750s in Oz have blown up already. We don't usually see them these days. My mate tuned his 650 for torque and never revved it over 6,300 rpm. It has never blown up, and is very fast.

The man in the blue leathers :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbnGGl3m ... ure=relmfu

acotrel said:

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It looks like you could use a little air in that front tire.

I have the best of both, a hot 850 Commando in a Wideline Featherbed frame I like the Wideline frame is very comfortable to ride and with the crank balanced for the Featherbed is very smooth, some say the Slimline handles better than the Wideline but thats a myth as the Slimline frame was only tucked in at top where the seat fits for riders that were smaller in the legs, some of the shorter riders complained that they had to streach their legs wider and on long races was uncomfortable for their legs and I read this in a book on the history of Norton, but I will find out when my 1960 650 Manxman Caferacer is back on the road when finished, but both bikes are all Norton.

Ashley

Do you get Bar Vibes at Er 90 ? the Atlases had a bit of a reputation for it . Bloke toured down through Europe at that on one . Said the grips got twice the size . :lol:

reading a Motoguzzi book , they used ' Bar End weights ' in the later flash ones , Daytonas of something . The mass counters the zing . Tuned for resonance
or avoidance thereof . Wouldnt like them ( the Clipons ) to fall off , if you got it wrong though . Welds crack , etc .

Push the Unit far enough back in the Wideline though , and . . .

grandpaul said:

Why pay additional money for a Norton engine and leave the Triumph lump gathering dust?

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For the same reason someone would pursue a pre-unit Triumph lump for their Triton, because you have some class and brains.

Of course if you are a businessman trying to build something cheap and trendy to sell to dummies to make a buck on you would put a unit Triton together. I would not worry about GrandPaul's Triton doing anything on a race-track with his very poorly engineered/widowmaker swingarm pivot he was trying to sell a bit back, he probably loc-tited the head-bolts of the engine in also..... should have been a pastry chef, good at making things look pretty and that is it.

Unit engined Tritons are always going to be either a personal or engineering compromise, the pig someone threw some lipstick on so they hope their friends will not notice what they are taking to the prom.

beng said:

grandpaul said:

Why pay additional money for a Norton engine and leave the Triumph lump gathering dust?

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I would not worry about GrandPaul's Triton doing anything on a race-track with his very poorly engineered/widowmaker swingarm pivot he was trying to sell a bit back, he probably loc-tited the head-bolts of the engine in also..... should have been a pastry chef, good at looking things look pretty and that is it.

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now thats funny! :mrgreen:

I am with beng on this. a unit turnip has to many issues to properly fit in a featherbed frame. you either have the countershaft sprocket to far from the swing arm pivot or the crankshaft to far from the front mounting point. also his lipstick on a pig and pastry chef are right on point :lol:

They say opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one...

...and my Triton isn't for sale.

As to any comments from non-racers about racing, I've raced, and done relatively well at it, on a shoestring. It takes more than a good bike to finish a full season in 5th out of 20 riders, only having raced a little over half the schedule. The Triton will be even further removed from my abilities than my box-stock 650 Triumph was, I freely admit I'm not that good; however, to anyone who would comment even though you've never turned a lap, it's just a lot of hot air.

My Triton with a chain tensioner to compensate for the spindle/sprocket offset, the engine far forward enough (as it is), with the 4LS front brake on relatively beefier forks than roadholders, and the modest engine mods, should be able to hold it's own against a similarly-equipped Commando, with equal riders aboard. I'd rate myself ahead of mid-pack on any given day out in the twisties. I imagine this Triton may allow me to up my game, given a little time to get the feel of it. Being that it's only a beefed-up 650, if I can keep up with a Commando with 100cc advantage, (and i believe I can), I'd say that would be respectable. anyone want to meet me out on the "Trinity", PM me and let's set up a date and time.

beng said:

grandpaul said:

Why pay additional money for a Norton engine and leave the Triumph lump gathering dust?

Click to expand...

For the same reason someone would pursue a pre-unit Triumph lump for their Triton, because you have some class and brains.

Of course if you are a businessman trying to build something cheap and trendy to sell to dummies to make a buck on you would put a unit Triton together. I would not worry about GrandPaul's Triton doing anything on a race-track with his very poorly engineered/widowmaker swingarm pivot he was trying to sell a bit back, he probably loc-tited the head-bolts of the engine in also..... should have been a pastry chef, good at making things look pretty and that is it.

Unit engined Tritons are always going to be either a personal or engineering compromise, the pig someone threw some lipstick on so they hope their friends will not notice what they are taking to the prom.

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Keep it clean. Don't go starting a feeding frenzy. What is already understood doesn't need to be said.

A good 1963 model Bonneville would be a much better ride than a triton fitted with 18 inch wheels. A Manxman would be extrely lovely to own, a friend of mine had one back when they were new, it was dearer than a Triumph, but much better. I think it had the first twin carb engine in a Norton twin. Tritons are usually not nice motorcycles, it is rare to see one that is properly built, and since I've had the 850 commando engine, I hate the 650cc Triumph motor, and the 750s were useless anyway. My only problem is that I'm always expecting the 850 to turn into a grenade.
I think it would be difficult to find a reasonably original '63 Bonnie these days, but one fitted with the five speed gear train with the Phil Pick close ratio mod, and the E3134 profile exhaust cam with the points extension , would be a really good thing. A triton would be a good pose bike these days, but they are really not a great ride. A Harley sportster made to look like a real motorcycle would also be better.

I guess this should be really a Triton vs Atlas thread, the first Tritons appeared around the late 50s long before the Commando.

Personally I would never pull apart 2 perfectly good bikes to build another. Even if I could get hold of an ES2 or Model 50 I'd prefer to send the motor off to pushrod performance than do a motor transplant.

However I've got no problem taking a pile of miscellaneous parts and building a bike out of them. In my case it's a ES2 frame bought off flea bay and a 69 unit motor. I did a lot of research before deciding upon this combo including a couple of long telephone conversations with Dave Degans of Dresda.
I do agree that the unit Triumph lump is a compromise in the Featherbed frame, the drive sprocket is too far forward, or if you mount the motor further back the weight distribution is too far aft, also there is no doubt that a pre unit motor, both Norton and Triumph look a lot better.
My choice of motor was due to personal preference (like all specials), I know it inside out, I have all the special tools and I have 71 Bonnie so most of the parts are interchangeable.
But the best thing with the frame is if I get bored with the Triumph lump I can always put something else in it (the featherbed frame looks great regardless of what motor has been fitted in it)

Webby

I invite anyone who is interested to meet me (on my Triton) in the Texas hill country and try to lose me between any two end points between towns in the "Trinity" 335/336/337. Classic bikes under 850cc only. If you are able to do so by more than one would expect from an 850 over an overbored 650 with stock cams (let's say 5 minutes or so), I'll give you a crisp $100 bill on the spot.

Meanwhile, as the kids like to say...

I don't know what barrels fit the 650 Norton bottom end, but here in Australia we have more atlases racing than were ever imported. I can only ever remember seeing two in Melbourne, and I believe the barrel flanges broke off both of them. A 650 Manxman was a really great bike, and I'd much rather have one of those than any Triton. I don't think any other early Norton had twin carbs ? I raced a Triton for about 12 years, it was OK, but my Seeley makes it look really silly - there is no comparison in performance or appearance. I'd love to own a Manxman, it had real value ! However I wouldn't waste my time with a triton, it is extremely rare that they are built right. I believe that you have to actually race one to get it right. If the motor is only half an inch too far back, or the bike is fitted with 18 inch wheels, it will handle like a piece of garbage.

This makes much more sense than a Triton ! :

acotrel said:

I believe that you have to actually race one to get it right.]

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To get it right for racing, you have to race it.

To get it right for the road, you don't race it. That would be silly.

I am beginning to wonder about you Yanks. There are enough of you to start a classic road race class and build bikes for it. And you have the money and so much engineering capability to do it with. That Mk2 Seeley frame in the picture I posted above would not be difficult to copy, and there must be a demand for them. Nor would the Norton Wideline Featherbed frame be difficult. You already have guys like Jim Scmidt making commando engine parts, so Steve Maney's stuff wouldn't be hard to duplicate. I believe that all of this business is a matter of critical mass. When it gets past a certain level, it becomes self-sustaining. I believe that the Seeley Condor had great potential, both as a road bike and a racer. The design was never properly exploited, so that could be a way into the game !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXcNgWqHDNw

@Triton Thrasher
When you start racing any bike, the first few meetings always reveal the shortcomings. You can ride a bike on the road for years and never achieve substantial improvement to an acceptable level of performance or handling. The old saying 'racing improves the breed' is what real motorcycling is all about. If you want a piece of stodgy garbage, buy a Harley or a Gold wing, don't even look at a Triton, they are not for you !
I once rode a 1300cc Harley Soft Tail, it looked good and sounded as good as a Fordson tractor as it lumbered off down the road. It didn't go, stop or handle, and in every other way it was so bad that it was good. That's OK if you've got a sense of humour and don't want an adrenalin rush. But when you are talking about Tritons you are talking about real motorcycles, not a replacement for a buffalo with a saddle.

Acotrel !!!

Copy Steve Maneys stuff!!!!!!

What!!!

Good God.

Real motorcycling is about riding a motorcycle. I ride the bike on the road, town and country. I don't believe that a successful racing Triton, or Triumph powered whatever, would be anything but annoying through a dozen successive sets of traffic lights. Engine behaviour from closed throttle to 1/8 throttle is pretty well irrelevant to a racer, but makes the difference between pain and pleasure on the Queen's highway.

I use an 8" SLS front brake. It's pretty good, but would be completely useless in a race, because it would fade.

What racers and endurance/production racers did do, which the factories should have paid more attention to, was to make the bikes robust. They found ways to keep the oil in and stop the exhausts falling off, at high speed. I'll cheerfully copy that sort of stuff from racers.