Commando Top Speed? (2010)

lcrken said:

It's also the only one I've found in the SCTA records. The other Norton records, including the ones just set this year by the "new" Commandos, are in the AMA record book. Way back when, SCTA and AMA had common records. Somewhere around 1978 the AMA got out of the landspeed record business, and left it to the SCTA. In 2004, when Dennis Manning started the BUB meets, he convinced AMA to sanction the events, so in the AMA record book there is a gap between 1978 and 2004.

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AHA!

I wondered about that.

So, the BUB meet is more "legitimate" than some folks have argued? I think the arguments had to do with the fact that they were allowing "Run What Ya Brung" and rookies with a 20-minute pre-run tech talk out on the salt to attack standing records that some guys took years to achieve...

grandpaul said:

AHA!

I wondered about that.

So, the BUB meet is more "legitimate" than some folks have argued? I think the arguments had to do with the fact that they were allowing "Run What Ya Brung" and rookies with a 20-minute pre-run tech talk out on the salt to attack standing records that some guys took years to achieve...

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The BUB meet is quite legitimate. The "Run What You Brung" category isn't counted for records. All you get is the chance to find out how fast your bike is, and go home with a timing slip to prove it. The safety rules, tech inspection, rider qualification, etc. are very similar to SCTA. AMA wouldn't sign up for anything less. The BUB meets are also approved by FIM for world records. The fees for either AMA or FIM are pretty steep now. We didn't run in 2010, so I don't know what the pre-entry fees were, but post-entry (after June 2) fees were $650 to run for either an AMA or FIM record, or $1300 to do both. The pre-entry feels were probably something like $400 or $450. I think it was $350 the last time we ran. Running a second class with the same bike in 2010 was an additional $200 per class for AMA, and $250 for FIM. The fees seem to go up by $50 or so every year.

Ken

Forced induction allows you to make more power without increasing RPM. A longstroke Norton motor will handle an increase in torque from a blower much better than it will handle higher RPM. Just keep the boost low and don't expect a big gain. You still won't be able to keep up with a modern crotch rocket if you want it to stay together more than a few miles. As boost goes up heat becomes a problem. Even if you build it to stay together with a lot of boost it will only be good for sprint races as it will not be able to dissipate heat fast enough to keep up with a modern rocket for very far. Jim

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This directly concerns Ms Peel, expected to process/burn over 200 cfm mixture amounts of heat to dump. A hi CR, dragster cam, mild boost Norton should impress them plastic road appliances. Detonation is the heat booger-boo, anti-detonation fluids/vapors is already one of Peel's support systems, thermal coatings another. But better start looking for fuel pumps or get a pair of yours that fit on frame rails to power 1.5 gallons a minute piston cooling oil jets. There are 200 hp bikes to spank out there - up to skinny tire ratings for those relaxing times in easy bee lines.

I do suspect Ms Peel can take on bicycles as it takes good power to assist a craft
around a turn faster and boy howdy un-powered turns are one of the most
dangerous conditions for a motorcycle - second only to trail braking saves to prevent going around accelerating harshly because the corner cripples can't take it like a real motorcycle. Brakes scare me a lot, tend to avoid em by always riding slow enough not to need them especially for turns.

Any reasonably good condition 10 yr old Jap 600 will leave a Norton for dead.............anyone who says otherwise should perhaps be looking at a career in politics! The Jap 600 will provide 130mph+ top end, with bulletproof reliability and excellent handling.............no real need to BS about these bikes, as everything is supported by how well they work on the race track!

Any reasonably good condition 10 yr old Jap 600 will leave a Norton for dead.............anyone who says otherwise should perhaps be looking at a career in politics!

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Amen!

I talked to Andy Molnar about making the 8 valve head.

He wanted 15,000 USD for the plans and the parts.

Any takers?

Any reasonably good condition 10 yr old Jap 600 will leave a Norton for dead.............anyone who says otherwise should perhaps be looking at a career in politics! The Jap 600 will provide 130mph+ top end, with bulletproof reliability and excellent handling.............no real need to BS about these bikes, as everything is supported by how well they work on the race track!

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Boy oh boy yoose guys and Carbonfiber in particular sure don't know what they are missing out on in both handling and out running mere 600's Esepecially those they made up to 6 year ago. But it does take some money and mods to match em or beat em on ole 750 and if same money/mod put in those 600's they'd out power a great 750 Cdo for pure bee line and top end but still not be able to plant the power a linked Commando in leans. Most amazing and surprising thing I discovered was how careful me and others are trying to use what power is on top in moderns, when leaned some hehehehehe.

Maybe we do. I know I have raced both. Jim

Boy oh boy yoose guys and Carbonfiber in particular sure don't know what they are missing out on in both handling and out running mere 600's Esepecially those they made up to 6 year ago. But it does take some money and mods to match em or beat em on ole 750 and if same money/mod put in those 600's they'd out power a great 750 Cdo for pure bee line and top end but still not be able to plant the power a linked Commando in leans. Most amazing and surprising thing I discovered was how careful me and others are trying to use what power is on top in moderns, when leaned some hehehehehe.[/quote]


A nicely running older 600 is probably going to be making around 75bhp at the wheel, in the real world a Commando is going to be around 50bhp. After you add the fact that the 600 is lighter, handles better, and has brakes that work pretty well, it would seem that the only way a Commando is likely to beat anyone on a Jap 600, is if the person on the faster bike cant ride very well.

Peel got out run by 04' 900's and above but not by factory 600's even with some modifed ones they'd run here. My SV650 is ~70 hp/365 lb factory and could not keep up with inline 4 600's nor Ms Peel after 60 mph or so. SV's can be pumped up over 120 hp and would out run Peel special but then they wear out fast. What most amazed and flabbergasted me was even hi hp sports bikes, once up to base line speed were unable to use or plant their power advantage when leaned much at all. If I had not experienced and tested Peel to the max for only neck and neck type contests I'd not make a peep about it but as I have I'm shouting from roof top ya don't know what you are missing out on in both rear link and small ports with big carb and tuned 2-1 exhaust with Combat bottom.

New Peel is not comparable to race rule Nortons d/t the boost and anti-detonation fluids, w/o those she'd be just another so so 920 with limited breathing at top end and be left behind by racer 750's and above in the bee line sprints. I seem to be the only one expecting to spank the best moderns coming on line at least to 1/3 over 18" tire speed ratings 170+? and in any turning conditions. I kinda was hoping listee's would be excited on a Commando so superior to others but list reaction are still rather mild compared to the scale of attitudes I got actually proving it.

So got me two levels of challenges to set world straight, one finish up new Peel and two re-build factory Trixie Combat into past Peel accidental configuration and get some objective measures. I did not know how much Peel lightened crank was helping her but Ken weighed Peel crank at 21 lb so only 2-3 lb lighter than factory so not that big advantage on past Peel's fast rev up response.
i was rather disappointed in past Peel performance until in frustration I shot out the super trap end plate then almost got left behind in my drive way on first blip up and very soon had to develop habit to white knuckle grip bars and plant butt hard before R wrist action hit in 1st and 2nd up to 90 mph.
I don't want to modify factory Trixie with rod links as I want a base line to compare and factory Combat is plenty fun and capable for sane thrills just not teasing sports bikes and good pilots into losing handling contests.

I had flats on Ms Peel on work commutes in great weather so would hop on SV650 for rest of the day commutes but almost crashed right off d/t unexpected stoppies just slowing for blind crests and turns and then popping little wheelies going by the pull of Ms Peel to get back to speed and then having front or rear skip out on warmed race rubber on intersection turns Peel took in glee half again faster with plenty of reserves. Plain Trixie Combat or past pre-Peel Combat were not capable of these loads and speeds. I'd eat regular Combats on SV650 in handling sweepers or to get up to 110 mph or so. Hell I had SV650 and corner school under my belt before 1st Ms Peel was done so I too was in great depression going by what I've known prior and "wisdom's" of the world at large. Not no More! Stay tuned to see me and Peel go down in smoke or leave the pack behind in flaming exhaust into the sun set : )

I was a teenager in 1957 when the H-D XLCH came out. Word on the street was it would pull a 4th gear wheelie. I never did find that XLCH that pulled a 4th gear wheelie. I get a lot of older, my age, people who come up to me when I'm riding my Combat and swear they had or knew someone who had a Norton that would do 150 mph. They ask how fast mine goes. I say 110 on a good day. They usually just turn away.

Well I raced a Commando and a SV650 for a few seasons. The Commando was in a Cro-moly frame with a good swingarm, works shocks, racetech cartridge forks and a four isolastic setup. Made around 80 hp at the crank and weighed roughly 300 lbs ready to race. It ran 130-650 race tires.
The SV had cams, flatslides and a two brothers exhaust with a Penski shock and race tech forks. It ran 150 radial slicks and weighed about the same as the Norton.
On a track where hosepower counted the Norton would outrun the SV on the straights. It was a good race.
However on a short track, such as Second Creek Raceway in Denver I could always turn better times on the SV due to higher corner speeds.
The SV could run with the open class bikes on a short track but I couldn't stay ahead of them because they could out-accelerate me from the corner just enough to take my line.
Trying to carry the SV's corner speed on the Norton would guarantee a nice slide on the asphalt. Did it more than a few times. Jim

jseng1 said:

I talked to Andy Molnar about making the 8 valve head.

He wanted 15,000 USD for the plans and the parts.

Any takers?

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Sounds like he is not going to make any.
I wonder if this includes the all important patterns ?

The trouble is it doesn't look like the original head, so the handsome looks are gone - tough sell ?

P.S. Thanls to Ken for posting that article.

JimC said:

They ask how fast mine goes. I say 110 on a good day. They usually just turn away.

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You only running a 19 tooth gearbox sprocket ?
Tried a 21 or 22. ??

A strong motor will easily pull it.
Not as quick off the mark around town though.

Well I raced a Commando and a SV650 for a few seasons. The Commando was in a Cro-moly frame with a good swingarm, works shocks, racetech cartridge forks and a four isolastic setup. Made around 80 hp at the crank and weighed roughly 300 lbs ready to race. It ran 130-650 race tires.
The SV had cams, flatslides and a two brothers exhaust with a Penski shock and race tech forks. It ran 150 radial slicks and weighed about the same as the Norton.
On a track where hosepower counted the Norton would outrun the SV on the straights. It was a good race.
However on a short track, such as Second Creek Raceway in Denver I could always turn better times on the SV due to higher corner speeds.
The SV could run with the open class bikes on a short track but I couldn't stay ahead of them because they could out-accelerate me from the corner just enough to take my line.
Trying to carry the SV's corner speed on the Norton would guarantee a nice slide on the asphalt. Did it more than a few times. Jim

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A very valuable report to me Jim. Its the evidence I've been waiting to compare outside my own experience. I got good enough on SV650 while past Peel still in works to spank squids on more powerful 600's but did not know what would happen if I made race tires get loose, so it was the reason I decided to spend $3000 on Codes corner school to find out, which I did in spades. Then learned to do make front or rear slide out on SV650 in public
trying best to just make turns faster and not lose it. Really truly depressed me on wasting money buying- recovering an obsolete Commando. Then got Peel run in and now realize too flexy bouncy or too rigid springy both limit real fun in turns. BTW the inline 4's require a fight to hold down, while the Vtwins require a fight to fling up in time, both resist fast lean changes by a sudden head shake or front or rear skipping out at last instant. Ponder the fact that Ms Peel goes into sharpest turns at tire slipping throttle where everyone else is hard on brake and then just pours in more power the whole way around and out. I have to really work at speeds and leans and power to get Peel to break lose in time to pivot on CoG in time to sharpen up a radius under acceleration.
Anything less than peg scrapping no room for leg 10 mph turns at over 50-60 one after another staying in one lane is just easy relief relaxing modes to Ms Peel. I am so encouraged by your report I'm not a nut case remembering what Peel was like. Next Peel will be lifted at both ends for more lean angle, maybe 70' ? The further one can lean in grip the further it will hi side for ya under power launches. But that's phase 4 so not in video yet of bikes enjoying its fun advantages one after another with just enough let off between to catch breath to lock down for next G force pressure.


Note the inner rails missing d/t longer trucks clipping em down d/t the sharpness but leaves some head room for Peels far over close hugging leans, no way can the SV seen in foreground handle these places but tippy toe in 1st up to about 35 mph before fork jutter or skipping too lose to go faster. Brakes here just twist bike or throw it down. Peel had to twist sideways to slide both tires to edge of road to get fling up aimed in new line to get on around in 2nd
This is a run I did on Peel against angry mad squids a friend on SV650 pulled me aside to warn me how dangerous stupid they had gotten on a couple hours of working up toward the tough places. i got tired of following them holding back so much I took off first into this and was in almost legal cruise mode entering next town 25 miles away before they caught up and passed me w/o a smile or wave or nod : ) We all pulled up to stop sign as a group but they would not even look at me on Peel, so I got some gas and turned around and did it again
backwards which put my face over those rail posts flashing by inches away.
Hehe, the squids were huffing and puffing me just refreshed and tingling wonder how much harsher I could do it if brave enough d/t oncoming hazards. If ya have to work a bike to go hard and fast then I repeat ya don't know what ya missing out on on quaint obsolete isolastics with rump rod and helpers nor what really neutral handling means in lack of pilot attention or effort but holding on to throttle while bars pulling wrists like a water skier.

Fast in the mountains is 90% rider and 10% bike ..

You forgot to say what part of the rider. Jim

comnoz said:

Fast in the mountains is 90% rider and 10% bike ..

You forgot to say what part of the rider. Jim

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Reminds me of a Jackie Stewart story. Jackie was to race at Riverside on a Sunday. He was at the track Friday when someone told him about the sprint cars at Ascot. Off he went to watch that show. Before the time trials, someone approached him and offered him their car to drive. He said he couldn't for he'd left his helmet at Riverside. Promptly, he was offered the loan of a helmet. He declined saying, "No thanks, I left me balls at Riverside, too".

Just more proof I'm on to something, fast in Ozark Mt's is 90% bike and 10% rider.
I'm a chicken pilot, never let bike get ahead of me nor get myself scarred by my own actions, No Fear No Sir Ree Bob! That crap is for racers with a reason to press their luck or depressed squids with a suicide wish. When I say Ms Peel was out run, it was not in the heats of dicing the fun stuff, if was on first getting to speed from stops or places I'd back off d/t known hazards they didn't and when its was more open than turns so they could pass me nearing the ton before the next set of turns hit. In general moderns require less maintenance but they have their known to fail too soon modes in electrics, drive train and fuel systems. None are as comfy as a Commando or easy to operate to me either. I'm a lazy rider except of course on THE Grit as it will wipe any ones ass out the blue if not in constant tension to stay ahead of it. I've had my SV650 going straight ahead 35 mph in a bowl dip hit 3 staggered pot holes in a row that resonated with suspension just right to lift bike with a twist and toss it on me sideways right out the blue. Going slower beats snot out of us, going faster is nicer but no reserves for the routine close calls. I have some qualms on plain isolastic Cdo too at these rates to as tires seem to skip side to side but not in same rhythm so tense to keep forks dampened from ruddering bike down or rear getting ahead of rider just maintaining forward thrust in turns.

Do ya know how fun it is not to have to slow up for turns, just worry about what might be in the way unseen till last instant, broken down tractors to tree falls, ugh. Its relaxing to hit a straight and just hang on till tops out.

hobot said:

Peel got out run by 04' 900's and above but not by factory 600's even with some modifed ones they'd run here. My SV650 is ~70 hp/365 lb factory and could not keep up with inline 4 600's nor Ms Peel after 60 mph or so. SV's can be pumped up over 120 hp and would out run Peel special but then they wear out fast. What most amazed and flabbergasted me was even hi hp sports bikes, once up to base line speed were unable to use or plant their power advantage when leaned much at all. If I had not experienced and tested Peel to the max for only neck and neck type contests I'd not make a peep about it but as I have I'm shouting from roof top ya don't know what you are missing out on in both rear link and small ports with big carb and tuned 2-1 exhaust with Combat bottom.

New Peel is not comparable to race rule Nortons d/t the boost and anti-detonation fluids, w/o those she'd be just another so so 920 with limited breathing at top end and be left behind by racer 750's and above in the bee line sprints. I seem to be the only one expecting to spank the best moderns coming on line at least to 1/3 over 18" tire speed ratings 170+? and in any turning conditions. I kinda was hoping listee's would be excited on a Commando so superior to others but list reaction are still rather mild compared to the scale of attitudes I got actually proving it.

So got me two levels of challenges to set world straight, one finish up new Peel and two re-build factory Trixie Combat into past Peel accidental configuration and get some objective measures. I did not know how much Peel lightened crank was helping her but Ken weighed Peel crank at 21 lb so only 2-3 lb lighter than factory so not that big advantage on past Peel's fast rev up response.
i was rather disappointed in past Peel performance until in frustration I shot out the super trap end plate then almost got left behind in my drive way on first blip up and very soon had to develop habit to white knuckle grip bars and plant butt hard before R wrist action hit in 1st and 2nd up to 90 mph.
I don't want to modify factory Trixie with rod links as I want a base line to compare and factory Combat is plenty fun and capable for sane thrills just not teasing sports bikes and good pilots into losing handling contests.

I had flats on Ms Peel on work commutes in great weather so would hop on SV650 for rest of the day commutes but almost crashed right off d/t unexpected stoppies just slowing for blind crests and turns and then popping little wheelies going by the pull of Ms Peel to get back to speed and then having front or rear skip out on warmed race rubber on intersection turns Peel took in glee half again faster with plenty of reserves. Plain Trixie Combat or past pre-Peel Combat were not capable of these loads and speeds. I'd eat regular Combats on SV650 in handling sweepers or to get up to 110 mph or so. Hell I had SV650 and corner school under my belt before 1st Ms Peel was done so I too was in great depression going by what I've known prior and "wisdom's" of the world at large. Not no More! Stay tuned to see me and Peel go down in smoke or leave the pack behind in flaming exhaust into the sun set : )

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From your posts on here, it seems pretty clear that your "wrist action" is highly developed!

Totally! right from the first post.