Commando Info

Status
Not open for further replies.
marshg246

marshg246

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
4,186
Country flag
In Feb 2020 I started a project to document several things about Commandos. This has clarified/confused some things about dates, serial numbers, and models. Besides the original plan, when I see a bike that is RIP, I add that as well.

I'm still gathering info and it is published here: https://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoID.aspx - bottom section of the page. If yours is listed with missing info, please email me at marshg@gregmarsh.com. If you would like to add your bike(s) to the effort - email me. If you have an AN or NOC record, I would love to get the info as it verifies other info.

I am keeping no record of the owner of the bikes published.
 
Hi Greg,

Your suppositions may be a propagation of common errors and assumptions found in many publications for profit. For example 1972 750 MkIV serial number 200001 manufacture date Jan 1972. This may be, however two of my combats 201123 with ID plate showing Oct 1971 and 201881 showing Dec 1971, later numbers with earlier build. The build dates don’t seem to have been linear with serial numbers at least for he 750s. Trying to be accurate with this subject might be futile.
 
illf8ed said:
Hi Greg,

Your suppositions may be a propagation of common errors and assumptions found in many publications for profit. For example 1972 750 MkIV serial number 200001 manufacture date Jan 1972. This may be, however two of my combats 201123 with ID plate showing Oct 1971 and 201881 showing Dec 1971, later numbers with earlier build. The build dates don’t seem to have been linear with serial numbers at least for he 750s. Trying to be accurate with this subject might be futile.
Click to expand...
Actually, I find little to bank on in the various publications, that's why I started the survey. We had a long thread about this earlier this year and several long-held ideas about Commando manufacture and dating have been all but disproven by the survey. The intro to the page is basically all disclaimers and sources - I'm plenty old enough to know, but I did not work at Norton and do not profess to have any personal knowledge.

One thing is becoming clear: The date on the certification label is not the date finished, date shipped, date off track, etc. Most likely, it's the date started. At least in 71/72 - see 201251 for an example. Also, the famous picture you'll find here: https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/service/ shows the fork neck bearings and certification label already installed before the frame was married to the power unit. My guess is that the certification label was stamped before going on the frame - if so, the date is the date the frame was prepared to go to the assembly line and the engine and gearbox were stamped to match the frame (at least when that picture was taken).

The factory changed the data gathered over the years. The more AN or NOC records I see the more clear what they were doing each year becomes. By 74, there was a good bit of info. In 72, there was very little in the records AN has.
 
marshg246 said:
My guess is that the certification label was stamped before going on the frame - if so, the date is the date the frame was prepared to go to the assembly line and the engine and gearbox were stamped to match the frame (at least when that picture was taken).
Click to expand...

Possibly on later models (built at Wolverhampton?) where the Edit: plate date stamp is often a neat block(?) stamp which suggests it was done prior to fitting but perhaps not on earlier models where the date stamp appears to have often been applied in a haphazard manner which suggests to me that those date stamps were either done on the production line or sometime later.
As both the later plate serial, date and engine serial numbers are Edit: neatly stamped (but perhaps not block stamps?), I'd also guess both engine and plate were stamped before the engine was assembled into the frame which seems to have been normal practice for other manufacturers such as BSA and Triumph where engines were built and stamped (or stamped and built?) before being sent to the production line, the frame then stamped after the engine had been fitted to the frame (accounting for the often wonky frame stamps on Triumphs etc.).
Power units sent to Andover were built at Wolverhampton so it would seem logical (to me, at least) that the engines and gearboxes would have been stamped with the serial number (but not necessarily the date) at Wolverhampton so any production faults could be traced.
 
Last edited:
Two data points from my current Commandos:
131286 ID plate (very early 750 S) shows Mar 1969 with build location London. Andover Norton supplied a despatch copy showing build date Mar 12, 1969 shipped to Norton Villiers in California on Mar 19, 1969.
201881 ID plate shows Dec 1971. NOC factory records project showed Dec 1971 build and shipment. I know this machine was delivered to Robert Paradowski while he was in Europe. He and his wife toured a bit before shipping it to California.

LAB
“block stamped”...was this on 850s? As you see my ‘72 plate looks to have been hand stamped.

12B31B5D-4DBA-4D4D-B368-8CDE76DE2FB9.jpeg
 
illf8ed said:
LAB
“block stamped”...was this on 850s? As you see my ‘72 plate looks to have been hand stamped.
Click to expand...

The serial number and date stamping of later plates look neater.

The "DEC" and "1971" on your plate could be (either one or possibly two) block stamps?
 
L.A.B. said:
Power units sent to Andover were built at Wolverhampton so it would seem logical (to me, at least) that the engines and gearboxes would have been stamped with the serial number (but not necessarily the date) at Wolverhampton so any production faults could be traced.
Click to expand...
It is certainly possible that the certification label was installed blank and then stamped to match the engine/gearbox. The only thing that is certain from the picture is that the label was on the frame before the engine/gearbox were installed.

BTW, do you know when that picture was taken?
 
marshg246 said:
It is certainly possible that the certification label was installed blank and then stamped to match the engine/gearbox.
Click to expand...


I wasn't suggesting the plate was blank only that the date wasn't stamped.
 
marshg246 said:
BTW, do you know when that picture was taken?
Click to expand...

Around June Edit: July* '69 I believe when the new production line was being set up at Andover.
*(Photo caption in Mick Duckworth's Norton Commando book p.52)
 
Last edited:
L.A.B. said:
The serial number and date stamping of later plates look neater.

The "DEC" and "1971" on your plate could be (either one or possibly two) block stamps?
Click to expand...
The “E” in DEC is slight lower which is one reason I thought hand stamped. I
Sorry Greg this is not relevant to your objective though.
 
marshg246 said:
I know, but having frames pre-stamped and engines/gearboxes pre-stamped seems like a nightmare logistically.
Click to expand...

If the plate was attached to the frame shortly before being placed on the production line with the matching engine lined up ready to be fitted (Edit: Or actually engine first, then the frame dropped onto the engine) then I can't see it would be much of a problem as we're talking about 40-50 bikes built per day, not thousands, not even hundreds.

Stamping the engine number after the primary cases had been fitted would be awkward unless extra-long number punches were used especially if done on the production track as there would be more chance of the hammer scarring the primary cover which leads me to believe the engine was most likely stamped 'on the bench' before the power unit was assembled.
 
Last edited:
marshg246 said:
I know, but having frames pre-stamped and engines/gearboxes pre-stamped seems like a nightmare logistically.
Click to expand...
Seems the easiest way would be assemble engine and gearbox into the frame then stamp and rivet the ID plate. Just guessing.
 
illf8ed said:
The “E” in DEC is slight lower which is one reason I thought hand stamped
Sorry Greg this is not relevant to your objective though.
Click to expand...
Actually, anything related to engine/gearbox/certification label stamping is useful to the discussion.

illf8ed said:
Seems the easiest way would be assemble engine and gearbox into the frame then stamp and rivet the ID plate. Just guessing.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's essentially how Triumph did it. However, in the picture I earlier linked to, the label was on the frame before the engine was installed.
 
After July 1969 move where where the engines assembled? Andover was the final assembly. I understood the engines were done at Wolverhampton. If so the engine number likely stamped where assembled.
 
I'll try to go back and get head stamps (RH4, RH10, etc) for the ones I submitted. I know I have at least 3 or 4...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top