Commando frames?

Carbonfibre · Mar 21, 2011

Anyone know where Commando frames were originally manufactured back when the bikes were new? I was told about this tonight, and must say I was surprised that it wasnt in the UK!

T100Mark · Mar 21, 2011

I believe that, for some period of time, the frames were produced in Italy. I remember reading that quality was an issue with these frames.

Rohan · Mar 21, 2011

Wasn't it Verlicchi that did the frames at some stage.
Apparently they weren't advised that the tubing under the seat area was heavier than in other areas. And had to be reworked .... ?

It is gradually emerging that quite a few bits were contracted out where-ever they could be done for least cost....

Carbonfibre · Mar 22, 2011

It was Verlicchi, and seems that quality may well have suffered as a result of penny pinching! Unit costs of frame production in Italy using cheap materials, were substantially less than here in the UK, but not sure for how long the Italian made frames were actually used for?

Ron L · Mar 22, 2011

Verlicchi frames used 60 mm backbone tubing (2.36 inch) while British (Renolds?) made frames used 2.25 inch tubing. I believe both Verlichhi and British frames were used from 1973-1975, but I could be wrong.

Ron

ZFD · Mar 22, 2011

Verlicchi made the majority of Commando frames to the best of my knowledge. Early ones were fumbled together in England, but Verlicchi were the motorcycle frame professionals making frames on an industrial rather than one-by-one scale, and to date make frames for lesser (than Norton, that is!) manufacturers like BMW, Ducati etc.
I have read the tales about Verlicchi frames being inferior to England-made Commando frames, but have my private doubts about that. Sounds more like patriotic propaganda than fact. Generally speaking British industry at the time was more pre-war than post-war in its engineering capabilities, and the Italian (and German) content of Commandos grew in production times as buyers at Norton became aware things can be produced to tolerances in other countries that were then impossible to achieve in England.
For those who had their illusions crumble rest asured today's replacement frames made by Andover Norton are in fact Made in England again, if only because the numbers needed in the spares game are not numbers that Verlicchi and similar manufacturers can be bothered with.

Carbonfibre · Mar 22, 2011

Interesting ZFD.............and you are certainly right about the British motorcycle industry being pre-war in regards to engineering capabilities, around the late 60's! Lack of investment in the industry when they were making a great deal of money pretty much killed any prospect of modern engines to rival the Japanese, as they simply didnt have machine tools good enough to manufacture anything up to date!

In the case of the Norton Commando motor its basic design dates back to 1948, and the Triumph twins were I think 1937. It seems a real shame that the greed and stupidity of those running the Brit motorcycle industry in the good times, pretty much sealed its fate, which may well have been averted had there been a proper level of investment, and a design program related to the present, rather than merely rehashing things already more than 30 years out of date.

bill · Mar 22, 2011

Carbonfibre said:
In the case of the Norton Commando motor its basic design dates back to 1948, and the Triumph twins were I think 1937. It seems a real shame that the greed and stupidity of those running the Brit motorcycle industry in the good times, pretty much sealed its fate, which may well have been averted had there been a proper level of investment, and a design program related to the present, rather than merely rehashing things already more than 30 years out of date.

it looks like it was pretty much the mentality of ALL of British manufacturing. how many mark versions before you wise up and scrap it ??

79x100 · Mar 22, 2011

...But.... This resistance to change has left us with a 1970s motorcycle embodying the charms of a machine from the 1940s with a direct line going back to before the First World war. I can't feel completely sorry about that. We are at least involved with our bikes, whether we want to be or not...

I can't really see me dreaming of an Earles-forked BMW or an AMF Harley either.

Onder · Mar 22, 2011

I always get a kick out of all the tool marks on gears and
sprockets and whatever. Seems they last sharpened the
cutters before the war. That and the castings look like
they were done by the guys involved in the
Great Leap Forward.
Compared to all this, the frame is a work of art!

Carbonfibre · Mar 22, 2011

79x100 said:
...But.... This resistance to change has left us with a 1970s motorcycle embodying the charms of a machine from the 1940s with a direct line going back to before the First World war. I can't feel completely sorry about that. We are at least involved with our bikes, whether we want to be or not...

I can't really see me dreaming of an Earles-forked BMW or an AMF Harley either.

Certainly...................but sadly also one of the reasons for the once great British motorcycle industry getting eclipsed by far better machines produced in Japan!

Rohan · Mar 22, 2011

Carbonfibre said:
Lack of investment in the industry when they were making a great deal of money pretty much killed any prospect of modern engines to rival the Japanese, as they simply didnt have machine tools good enough to manufacture anything up to date!
<snip>
. It seems a real shame that the greed and stupidity of those running the Brit motorcycle industry in the good times,

This does not reflect the reality of motorcycle manufacturing for most of the 20th Century ?

Profits were generally extremely low for most years, with a number of sales slumps, depressions, wars etc etc. And it must be remembered that most bigger manufacturers were responsible to return a dividend to shareholders. Unlike today, many manufacturers then were operating on a shoestring budget, including race teams of some of the bigger manufacturers.
As one old timer commented - the team motorhome for a modern GP race team was more ££ than our race teams entire yearly budget, and thats everything...

How do you make a small fortune out of motorcycle manufacturing ?
Invest a large fortune in it.

splatt · Mar 23, 2011

I read something about this awhile ago, if I remember correctly the frames were made by Reynold tubing before going to Italy, Reynolds made more out of straightening the Italian frames than making new ones .

ZFD · Mar 23, 2011

splatt said:
I read something about this awhile ago, if I remember correctly the frames were made by Reynold tubing before going to Italy, Reynolds made more out of straightening the Italian frames than making new ones .

That is what I meant by "patriotic myths". I suppose Renolds still make loads of money out of straightening frames for BMW, Ducati etc.......... because, as opposed to Renolds, who weren't equipped to make motorcycle frames in industrial quantities, Verlicchi became one of the industry's leading frame manufacturers by supplying nothing but crap that has to be rectified by Renolds before it is fit to go in a motorcycle.
Dream on!

Carbonfibre · Mar 23, 2011

Verlicchi are still in the business of making frames today................what has become of Reynolds operations in this area I wonder?

Rohan · Mar 23, 2011

Carbonfibre said:
Verlicchi are still in the business of making frames today................what has become of Reynolds operations in this area I wonder?

Ken Sprayson retired some years ago ?
Ken WAS the motorcycle frame maker.

Since making frames was only a sideline from the business of suppying tubing, you'd wonder how Reynolds got into that business anyway. ?
You can't buy a bicycle frame ready made in 531 - directly from Reynolds.

Be interesting to hear the story behind him - written down anywhere ?
Did he have a large crew ?

Carbonfibre · Mar 24, 2011

Reynolds 531 has been superseded by 631, and this seems to be far more useful for bike frame production, being both stronger and lighter than the 531. Not sure whether or not Reynolds ever produced frames for production machines, although some Norton race bike chassis did have Reynolds tube sets.

ZFD · Mar 24, 2011

When our chief buyer retired, he was asked by Mick Duckworth if he was prepared to cooperate in a story "My life as Norton buyer" (he had been wit Norton for about forty years when he retired from Andover Norton/working life a couple of years ago). His answer was "No, I don't want to fall into the Sprayson trap of inventing more and more stories about my achievements with every interview!"
Hence, no story about Bob, and it puts the great achievements of Mr.S. in perspective. He was but a welder with Renolds tubes, repairing frames at the TT.

Rohan · Mar 24, 2011

ZFD said:
and it puts the great achievements of Mr.S. in perspective. He was but a welder with Renolds tubes, repairing frames at the TT.

I don't think this is the full story, Joe ? Manx Norton frames were not made by Nortons, and Nortons didn't own the jigs, or blueprints, for them either - they came fully built, from Reynolds, for the race shop to build into bikes ??

One welder could probably have turned out the entire years production of customer manx frames too, they were not exactly mass production.

Anyone know what went on in Reynolds for this to happen ??

Rohan · Mar 24, 2011

P.S. Does anyone know, or investigated, who held the patents on the featherbed frames ??

This may be a iseful indicator of the tie-up for the manufacture of them....

Commando frames too, come to that...