Cold Start Issues ... Just Thinking

Hello all. I am sorry to say I still only have 322 miles on my 961 Sport and it's not because I don't love it. No, I developed a painful tendonitis in my left forearm a few months ago that has only been aggravated by riding, I'm afraid. I did one last longish ride of 70 miles on Daytona 955i (now sold) a few weeks ago that caused the most harm. So I have reluctantly stayed away from riding and all lifting with my left arm since.

In any case, I had planned to swap out the ignition wires and plugs during the upcoming 500 mile service to try and alleviate the cold start problems. I can usually get into an idle after two punches at the starter button, but it's an annoying revving ritual I go through each time and I think it might actually be harmful (at least the manual states as much). So I am wondering if it's the low voltage reading I see after flipping on the ignition that makes for this cold start situation. I have kept the battery fully charged using a BatteryTender all along. However, the voltage drops to 12.2 as soon as the headlight comes on. That was a big issue with my Daytona. The remedy for that bike is to replace the cable that connects the solenoid to the starter motor with a heavier gauge. I actually took it a step further and replaced the Halogen bulbs with LED bulbs. Prior to the upgrade it would take me 4 to 5 attempts to get the engine to idle in air temperatures of 50° and below. After the upgrade the engine started and idled on the very first try.

So does anyone else suspect this might be similar to what I/we experience with the 961?

Peter

Hello Contours , It sounds like the usual cold start issue that most of us had or have still. The newest download from Norton may resolve your issues. If you explain to the Norton Dealer what is going on with your bike they (dealer) will probably be advised to schedule your bike for a re-map and New OS download . My bike shows the slowly climbing voltage as well and that is normal. Tony

I agree with Tony and think that this is a mapping issue. Nethertheless I mounted a lithium battery and this one is much better than the stock one.
Raphi, Switzerland

Raphi said:

I agree with Tony and think that this is a mapping issue. Nevertheless I mounted a lithium battery and this one is much better than the stock one.
Raphi, Switzerland

Click to expand...

Thanks for the replies! I plan to do the same thing toward the end of the season.

As far as changes to the mapping, the only thing that would help the cold start is a richer fuel mixture until a certain temperature is reached. That's what was recommended for my Daytona 955i. But if changing the coil, wires and plugs works for guys like Richard and his dad it seems to me there is a low voltage issue going on as well. 12.2 volts prior to pressing the start button is not terrible. But if the battery were to drain a bit as it does after a few days without a charge starting cold would be difficult. And it definitely was difficult on the day my bike was delivered after being dragged around the country for days by the transporter! :x

Just speculating here, but I hope to test out an LED headlight bulb in the near future to see what effect it has.

Peter

contours said:

Raphi said:

I agree with Tony and think that this is a mapping issue. Nevertheless I mounted a lithium battery and this one is much better than the stock one.
Raphi, Switzerland

Click to expand...

Thanks for the replies! I plan to do the same thing toward the end of the season.

As far as changes to the mapping, the only thing that would help the cold start is a richer fuel mixture until a certain temperature is reached. That's what was recommended for my Daytona 955i. But if changing the coil, wires and plugs works for guys like Richard and his dad it seems to me there is a low voltage issue going on as well. 12.2 volts prior to pressing the start button is not terrible. But if the battery were to drain a bit as it does after a few days without a charge starting cold would difficult. And it definitely was difficult on the day my bike was delivered after being dragged around the country for days by the transporter! :x

Just speculating here, but I hope to test out an LED headlight bulb in the near future to see what effect it has.

Peter

Click to expand...

All 961's from early 2014 are wired such that the headlights turn off while the bike is cranking so that maximum power is available for the starter motor.

Hello Contours , Keep working on the upgrades , all the things you said you wanted to do are good ideas and worthwhile . Thicker heavier gauge cables to the starter will always help. I also have the Bosch coils and new plug wires and I will soon be installing a handlebar riser as well. I will go for a 1 in. rise after talking to Richard about it . I have installed the lithium Iron Shorai battery which is VERY light with good cranking power. The Norton 961 is easy to work on !

Thanks for that info, Simon. I'm pretty sure my Triumph also had that feature, but the initial drain prior to starting was all it took.

I'm following your lead on the upgrades, Tony! :mrgreen:

My Daytona 955i is also a bear to start in cold weather, unless the battery is freshly charged. Even then it takes some cranking.
One cool day last fall I cold started the bike but had forgotten to remove the battery charger. The bike started instantly, just like a hot start.

I'm now using this method to start any bike that has been sitting, even the kickstart bikes. The results so far are quite convincing.

So I think you are onto something with the starting voltage question.

If, after a period of non-use, the battery voltage is 12.5 or lower, then the starter is engaged which draws the system voltage much lower, the ignition probably doesn't get the voltage it needs to make a hot spark.
So low battery resting voltage = sluggish turnover and weak spark, not ideal for cold starting. Also really bad for starter sprags.

We also see this cold start problem with MK3 estart Commandos, especially if fitted with certain types of Electronic ignition. The starter whirls the engine over but the voltage is too low to fire the ignition properly. As soon as you release the starter button the bike fires up.
Same thing there, big starter cables are recommended, but they don't increase the voltage to the ignition. If anything, big starter cables reduce the voltage seen by the ignition by pulling even more power for the starter.

I'm planning to mount a small second 12 volt battery that would be switched on just for cold start and would be isolated such that it would only supply power to the ignition. That way the ignition circuit would have full 12 volts + for starting rather than 10.5 or 11 as it is now when the starter is whirling.

Glen

worntorn said:

I'm planning to mount a small second 12 volt battery that would be switched on just for cold start and would be isolated such that it would only supply power to the ignition. That way the ignition circuit would have full 12 volts + for starting rather than 10.5 or 11 as it is now when the starter is whirling.

Glen

Click to expand...

Now, that is a cool idea!

I did all the upgrades as outlined on the TriumphRAT forum. Except for the headlight bypass relay. That looked kind of sloppy to me. I believe switching to LED bulbs with half the voltage requirement did the trick. I look forward to the day when I can start this 961 with one punch and no throttle. That's how good my Daytona 955i was.

My bike starts with no issue. Used to take 2 tries once upon a time but now with the new map and OS upgrade ( speak to your dealer) non issue. Seriously. Its. incredible. I still make sure not to touch the throttle. Only the button. Let it warm up for 30 seconds (if cold) and gone.

richard-7 said:

My bike starts with no issue. Used to take 2 tries once upon a time but now with the new map and OS upgrade ( speak to your dealer) non issue. Seriously. Its. incredible. I still make sure not to touch the throttle. Only the button. Let it warm up for 30 seconds (if cold) and gone.

Click to expand...

Hmm. Looks like I'll be choosing a dealer sometime soon. :roll:

You can mail your ecu to MCC. thats what everyone else does.

I would not feel bad about that at all. After all, I ordered the bike through them.

Thanks for the info, Richard. After today's 95 mile ride I believe I could use a better map. Very sluggish between 3K and 4K. A lot of misfires on the way back to 4500 RPM!

Prior to my most recent remap, it would take at least 3 tries and the revving ritual. Now, one press, goes to 2k for about 10-12 seconds and drops down to 1150. No stalling. I occasionally get a harder medium hot start. Ride, bike sits for 20 minutes, stalls at first attempt. It doesn't bother me. I still have the orig. wires and coil. Bikes running great. Leaving well enough alone for now. Sorry about your tendonitis. That really sucks. Maybe a new T120 or some bar risers would be right for you. (personally, I'd go with the risers)

Removing the ECU is straight forward enough (thanks to Richard's manual). I guess I'll do it at the same time I change the oil in a week or so.

Next week I'll be in Colorado visiting my brother. He has a nice 2006 Speed Triple for me to ride around on. It will be worth a little pain. :|

richard-7 said:

You can mail your ecu to MCC. thats what everyone else does.

Click to expand...

$120 plus shipping? :shock: Wow. Okay, I guess that's what I bought into.

Does anyone know roughly when the 2016 map became available? I'd like to know why they didn't flash my ECU before or after the break-in I paid for.

It was made in Jan 2016. And I believe most dealers would have had it by February. Which means you should have it. Too bad there isnt a way to check. However. There was a new OS released but not sure the date. A few months ago-ish.... ??? Possibly the new OS is what you need. But still connects to ECU so its like mappings as far as install.

I would say NO . They (MCC) didn't have any new maps or OS until I started asking about it. This was after speaking to Stephen Green at Norton. This summer sounds about right for the arrival of the new software at MCC at least. Contours needs the new download , after hearing the cold start symptoms in my view.

Why not go to Gold Coast ? They have done remaps for other members . And a lot closer to Contours.

If you are shipping the ECU IT doesn't really matter.