clutch problem

I got tired of waiting for Frank to send me a battery, I should have gone to tractor supply, anyhow, I installed a 2 AH gel cell in it just to try to get it running. Started pretty easy, but the clutch is feeling very strange, it adjusts fine like the book says, but it doesn't dis-engage. It feels real spongy at the end of pulling it, I remember it used to sort of break over and I could hold it there with not much pressure. Of course I can't get it into gear this way. I'm sure the actuating lever is not fallen down, but will check again. I'm using the stock plates and my original cable. I just removed the plates and cleaned them up, they have some slight rust pitting in the steel plates, but are not rough and they are dry.

I also noticed that the triplex chain did not have any oil on it, I put in the chain case what the book recommended. Maybe I should fill it to the fill hole? Don't know if it was.

I'm going up to inspect the actuator lever. How much should the diaphragm move when pulling on the clutch?

OK, more information. I can screw in the adjuster on the diaphragm, and get it to break over and release, but I cannot get it adjusted with the little bit of free play in the actuator arm?

Dave
69S

The center of the diaphram should move about .100 to .125 inch. Kind of sounds like the lever is out of position.

And I wouldn't use any more than the specified amount of oil. The clutch gets oiled too soon anyway.

I got the clutch to release. I just screwed in the adjuster on the diaphragm until it did, the clutch lever (and diaphragm) broke over and I was able to turn the rear wheel in 1st gear holding the clutch in. I still had free play in the cable, but that is not to say there is any free play in the actuator. I'm thinking it is very hard to tell if there is free play in the actuator with the cable on, even if you release all the cable free play by running in the adjuster at the clutch. I kind of remember it was always like this, very touchy as to adjustment on the diaphragm screw. I'll see if I can get any measurements on the diaphragm to confirm ludwig's numbers.

I'm sure the actuator arm is ok.

Thanks guys,
Dave
69S

Dave,
Every Commando I've ever worked on has a clutch that felt different. One rule of thumb guide is that when the clutch lever is pulled in, the kickstart must depress lightly and smoothly. The slightest resistance will be clutch drag and make gear engagement, particulary into neutral difficult. It will also give you a sudden uptake when releasing.

My personal preference for adjusting the clutch is -

Remove the cable from the handlebar lever,
Unwind the lock nut on the clutch centre adjuster and remove the gearbox inspection cap.
Reach over and insert one finger into the gearbox and feel the actuator, make sure the cable end is slotted in.
At the same time, screw in the clutch adjuster screw and feel the actuator move until resistance just firms.This indicates zero play in the actuation.
Now back off the clutch adjuster screw 1/2 turn. The book say 1, but that doesn't neccesarily apply to worn parts or different types of plates fitted.
Keep the adjuster steady in place as you nip up the lock nut.
Refit the cable end into the handlebar lever and wind the adjuster ferrule until there is about 1/8 or 3mm of end play between the lever and the perch.
Pull in the lever and depress the kickstart, it should be smooth and drag free.
There should be not more than 200mils or 1/3rd pint of oil in the primary case. Also pays to wipe a little grease on the handlebar lever assembly too.

Mick

Mick,
Thanks, I'll try that one. I think I have free play in the actuator arm, but like you indicate it is really hard to tell with the cable attached. I remember this bike was always very picky about the clutch adjustment. My book(s) say 1/3 to 1/4 turn out after contact, which in my case seems to be a bit much as it's hard to get the diaphragm to break over. As long as the clutch is not slipping and like you say, you can push the kickstart through without drag, it should be good. I can certainly feel when the diaphragm breaks over it's center with the clutch lever though.

I filled the primary with a baster (7oz) from the timing cover since I had it off checking the timing, and when I pulled the cover to check the clutch basket today, the triplex chain was completely dry, but oil in the bottom, after running it a few times, but not on the road yet. I'm sure when it gets on the road, things will splash around a bit more. I'll keep an eye on it. Plus today I filled it from the top hole which went right on the top of the chain.

Dave
69S

I got the battery from Frank Thursday late and filled it and charged it Friday. Pretty cold today, so we spent the day getting the plants inside away from the frost, tried adjusting the clutch like Mick suggested with the cable unconnected, and it was all going well until I put it all back together and pulled the clutch cable and it broke. Dead in the water for now. I did find some 06-0919 cables on ebay in WA for just a few bucks so I bought 2 http://compare.ebay.com/like/320201...f8c4eee&itemid=320201689827&ff4=263602_304662

Dave
69S

Thanks for the thread Dave and thanks to Mick for taking the time to state his procedure in a "why I do it this way" manner.

I've had trouble finding neutral lately and now I've got a better understanding of what I've been trying to do when I adjust the clutch.

I just got my new cables this morning and have one installed. The new one is maybe 2" longer in the sheath than the old one, but the ends are correct and the cable length is right. Adjusted it like Mick says and now I can feel the lever breaking over the diaphragm just before I have the lever against the handle. Feels right to me, not spongy and when it breaks over it is real easy to hold, not that hard to pull either, but definitely not 1 or 2 fingers.

It's raining today and the road is muddy, so no riding. Tomorrow is supposed to be 70 and sunny, so I should be able to get it out and a few miles on it up and down the driveway and around the barn for the first shakedown cruse.

Dave
69S

BeWare! if triplex chain not loose enough cold to dip into top of oil bath then its already way to tight to take it when heated on road use. Only takes once to bend shafts, but not noticed till about everything complained of in drive train happens in sequence.

The actuator ball can easy fall out of place to stifle good adjustment, but still sorta half way works to keep ya guessing. Youse guys would not have missed that one like I have.

I've had a TS main shaft nut back off enough to give exactly the group of symptoms described here. Of course that only happens to me, so ignore that as ya may.

Lovely man testing beasts these Commando's, with a number of things that cause the same symptoms, sometimes more than one at once to fool ya more than once.

When the rest is well, I tighten DS adjuster till it seats lightly then back off ~1/4 turn -works good for me in a few 750 I've gotten to attend to.

I know most manuals call for 7 oz. of oil in the primary but the tech Digest says use only 5 oz. Like Jim said, the clutch gets oiled enough as it is.... I use 5 oz. of whatever oil I have on hand and my plates don't stick as much or often when the bike sits for extend periods... I believe it has been said that the oil cools the rotor and lubes the chain..


Tim_S

Just started having clutch problems myself, snatchy take-up was the first thing. Adjusted as Mick says, no improvement but now drag as well as snatch.
Checked stack thickness - diaphragm spring just slightly convex, seems right.
Recalled notched clutch centre can cause drag, it was notchy, so fitted a new one from Andover. Didn't get as far as running engine - kicking over whilst pulling clutch lever used to be easy, now quite stiff and grating.
Teeth on the fibre friction plates are worn to sharp points, so replaced with old bronze plates with good teeth just to test if it would free up, but no improvement.
Mainshaft is possibly slightly bent, about 12 thou wobble, is this maybe the problem?

BTW, can a dry (belt drive) clutch be run with bronze friction plates or do they have to be fibre (Surflex)?

I've mixed and matched various kinds friction and pressure plates on belt 1', no problemo. All type of friction plates work fine as long as rest of the kit is up to it.
New plates should be soaked in ATF then wiped mostly dry to prevent break in chatter ridges. Heck re-surfaced old plates too. Solvents then to drive oil into pores, physical removal or detergent works out better in my learning curve.
Part of this Commando discipline is knowing once one fault discovered its likely got a few mates not doing so well either.

The new centre does rub lightly on the basket and I was intending to ease that down a touch, but I don't think that's the main problem here.
I did wonder where the steel worn off the plate teeth went, maybe it's embedded in the friction material causing roughness.
Any thoughts on the mainshaft wobble (measured at the clutch end)?
I'll try the bronze plates before I commit to buying new Surflex. Just need to get a thinner pressure plate, turned the shed upside down looking for it then realized I used the original Commando one in the Dommie RGM belt drive, with Surflex but happened to give the right stack thickness.

Most the main shaft/clutch basket wobble is d/t worn sleeve shaft bushes, which need 3 installed as only two tend to walk together and not support well and wide.

Metal wear turns to nano dust and goes everywhere but mostly to bottom of chain case. You can put a magnet on the sludge to see how much is ferric or not.

Outtrigger bearing also not a bad idea along with dual gear box adjustors to keep adjusted better longer.

CNW sells Al pressure plates, maybe in various thickness to get stack height right.
Reading various plate reports and my own testing implies once rest of the clutch mechanically ok and oil drool from gear box restrained then any the plate materials work a treat, even mixed and matched.