Clutch oil

Hey

When I should start up again after an engine work this winter, was not the clutch as it once was. It did not release completely. I disassembled the clutch today and washed it completely clean of oil and mounted it all over again, without having the new oil in. When I restarted my MK3, everything was in order. The clutch did released as it should.
What have I done wrong?
. Have I used too thick? or wrong oil, or or too much?

What kind of quality , and how much should I use ??

Vidar

Oops. Although they get a little, no oil is used on the clutch. "Dry Clutch System" (for the most part). Belt drives eliminate oil from the clutch although some people get weepage from the pushrod.

HI Vidar, you have a Mark3 so you have to have more fluid in the primary that bikes older than yours because the oil level makes your hydraulic chain tension work.

What kind of oil in the primary?
The factory back then said to use regular motor oil, but most people nowadays say to use ATF because it is thinner and so if it gets on your clutch plates it can run off out of there easier.

How much to put in? I don't know but I know the pre-Mark3s used about 7 ounces, so you will need a little more.

Maybe someone here can chip in with the correct Mark3 primary oil amount for Vidar?

there is a level plug on mk3 hth

As far as the correct amount for the mk3, there is a level plug for this. Just bring the oil up to that level.
When I first got my MK3, I had some problems with the clutch. Actually, I thought I had a trans problem because the bike kept falling out of first gear on take off. Also, the clutch dragged enough that neutral was very hard to find. With the clutch dragging, you try for the space between first and second, but have to use so much foot pressure that the lever goes right thru neutral into 2nd instead.

Also, the clutch was grabby on takeoff.

It was suggested to me that I ought to try Atf instead of oil in the primary. I drained the oil out and put some Dextron ATF in.
After a month of riding I didnt see any improvement.
I met a member of the Norton Owners Club at a bike show we got talking about the clutch problem. He suggested that I should switch to 'typeF' atf. He claimed that the Type F " cleans up our Norton clutches and makes them run smooth"

I must admit I was a bit doubtful of his claim, but thought it was worth a try, easy enough to change a bit of atf.
Turns out he was correct. Within a week of riding with the type F in there the clutch drag was gone, neutral was easy to find and the action on takeoff was as sooth as you could ask for.
A big added bonus was that the bike no longer popped out of gear on takeoff. This had been occuring because the clutch drag was sometimes preventing full engagement of 1st gear.

So it has been Type F in the primary ever since!

Glen

Yes, Glen. My problem was exactly as you described them.
Had great difficulty with finding neutral when I used an AFT oil.

Vidar

Hi Vidar

Atf was not the problem, it was having the WRONG KIND of ATF in there that was the problem. Sorry for the capitals but I want to make sure you get this fixed as easily as I finally did, once I stumbled onto the type F ATF.
I had all of the same problems with regular 50 weight motor oil in there and even tried some thinner multigrade oil with no success. This is why I first tried the ATF. I had some Dextron on hand, and my only info at that point was to try ATF, so in it went.

My point of my earlier post was that there are numerous types of ATF, all different.

I learned from a Norton owner that Type F is the correct one to use for my Mk3. I expect it would also work well in the earlier Commandos.
In ATF types, there is Dextron, which I treid without sucess, Mercon 1 and Mercon 2 as well as Type F. There are probably some others as well.
These oils are quite different from one another in composition even though they all look like the same red runny stuff.

Please try putting some type F ATF in there (200cc according to the shop manual), run it around for a few hundred miles then let us know the results.

Glen

Yes, I will do it. I will get F ATF.
Then I will provide feedback.
Thanks for your help

VidarAngre

20w/50 for me.

My Mk3's hydraulic chain tensioner did not work properly with ATF F in the primary.

As far as clutch operation is concerned, I couldn't tell any difference between ATF F, 10w/40 or 20w/50.

L.A.B. said:

As far as clutch operation is concerned, I couldn't tell any difference between ATF F, 10w/40 or 20w/50.

Click to expand...

So many variables that it's hard to compare ease and quality of clutch operation from one bike to another but if LAB sees no difference between those very different oils in the same machine, then that's good evidence the type of oil isn't so important in his bike. However, when worntorn obtained a dramatic change just by shifting from dextron to type f, that's good evidence that, if no other changes/adjustments were made during the same period, oil type made a difference in his bike. Go figure - too many variables.

When I switched to ATF in my '74, I did so mainly to be able to easily see if there was any more leakage of trans fluid into the primary after fitting a clutch rod seal. The clutch had never worked better afterwards but I had also renewed the friction plates, checked stack height and installed a new clutch center. So I can't comment at all about whether oil type affected my clutch operation. What you can say, in the face of these obvious differences in results, is that it is very difficult to make meaningful comparisons without considering all the variables between bikes, riding styles, climate, etc.

Besides, after owning one of these beasts for this long, I'm faced with accepting the unsettling possibility that the damn things are sentient and out to drive us all bonkers.

The E-start 850 may need real engine oil d/t the hydraulic tensioner I've read. For a decade+ now I've run Dextron or power steering fluid in my forks but use Type F [for Friction band- plate use] Ford ATF in primary but Dextron ATF in the gear box. Barrnett's tech says to wet new or re-surfaced clutch plates with ATF, wipe excess off and install to prevent chatter during initial bed in. There 4 advantages of AFT in out drive trains, one lower friction, two better heat transfer capacity by thinner oil, three ability to flow into/out of the sleeve bushes in lower gears which gear lube simply can not until stopped and four to differentiate between engine oil or drive train leaks. I tore up 2 sets of sleeve bushes and a sleeve shaft racing ahead of sports bikes limited by their poor wheelie prone CoG's in tights in red zone in 1st 2nd and 3rd, till ATF extended the life of this weak ness in design. I have not had much issue sealing in ATF in primary or gear box.

The only thing I changed to get the clutch to start working properly was to dump out the Dextron and pour in the type F.

So it seemed that the Type F had cured things, but who knows, maybe the clutch was getting ready to behave anyway?

The type F is worth a try since it is such a simple and cheap thing to do. On considering the comment made to me long ago, the Type F is perfect for "cleaning up the plates on our Norton clutch", perhaps one could run the type f for a short while to restore proper clutch function if it is dragging/grabbing, then switch back to 20 50 for the sake of the hydraulic tensioner?

Glen