Clutch help for my 1970 441 Victor

Hi Guys,

Today I pulled apart my 1970 Victor clutch to install new Bartlett friction plates. The manuals call for 4 friction plates and 5 smooth steel plates. When I opened it up, I found an extra friction plate at the bottom of the clutch basket, maybe used as a spacer? When I removed it and installed the 4 new friction plates and the existing 5 smooth plates, the clutch would not engage. While I can feel the difference between pulling in the clutch lever while kicking through, the clutch simply slips when "engaged". The total compressed stack depth leaves 0.200 inch of free depth with respect to the basket edge. The "spacer" took up 0.125" before I removed it. The springs are original and cranked down as much as I can manage. Do I really need to add a plain spacer or two to make this work?

Late Braking News:

Rupert Ratio writes that some B44s had "5-plate" clutches, meaning 5 friction plates, one of which was mounted at the bottom of the clutch basket. My manual calls out 4 friction plates, but WTF, it's been wrong before. Kommando, Norbsa?

Sorry just catching up. Yes a five plate conversions became a needed thing as the bike turned into a 500. There is good reason to retro this mod into a 441. The best ones are done by welding the top hat pressure plate to the adjoining plate this has to be done while the clutch is an assembly on the welding table. Ed V does this job in his shop and you could chew the fat with him about his approach. http://www.evengineering.com/
Getting it to work in stock configuration means you are operating on the edge. Clutch was made for a 250cc bike.

Thanks, Norbsa

I talked with Ed, who was generous with his time and advice. He recommended that I just add the fifth friction plate and not do the pressure plate mod. My Victor is a street bike used to run around the island, and sees light duty. Once I install the 5-plate clutch, I'll still have 0.075" stack clearance to the top of the clutch basket, nearly enough for another steel plate. Is this worth doing once the new plates have bedded down? The clutch would then comprise 5 friction plates and 6 steel plates, with zero clearance.

Sounds like a plan that could work. But without welding it on the pressure plate what happens when plate separation occurs?

I'll check the clearance under full disengagement to insure there is enough room to capture the outboard steel disk. My guess is that it won't work, and I'll stay with the 5 friction, 5 steel arrangement. Just checking with the Forum's more knowledgable members.

You might want to replace the springs too. I have a 68 Shooting Star 441. About a year ago I pulled the clutch to replace the primary chain that had lost a plate & was falling apart. When I checked the springs they were all differant lengths. Also replaced the little rubber shock absorbers in the hub. They were shot too. Fun bikes for around town. A good friend lives on Widbey Island up there, It must be nice to ride around all that green open space.

I ordered new springs when I ordered the extra friction plate. Everything is installed now, and the clutch doesn't slip when kicking it over at full compression. No sea trial yet, but it works great in the shop; pressure plate run-out is limited to 0.010". One point of interest, however, is that all of the clutch action occurs in the first inch or so of travel of the clutch hand lever.

BTW, the new springs were 40 thou longer than the original springs, so some weakening likely did occut in the bike's undocumented past.

Rick, You might try this: should be able to move the sweet spot around by playing with the clutch rod adjustment. Just take off all cable adjustment, detach the cable from the lever than use a start (datum)point, with one half turn off from touching re-hook and adjust the cable than repeat removing the cable each time, using a 1/4 turn more back off each time. Understanding how rod length and rod adjustment effect the clutches action will pay off later even if you can't get it working just how you like. Sometimes the lock nut can fool you if it gets jammed on the threads of the adjustment screw it's best to get it good and free before you start this experiment.

Norbsa,

Thanks again for your comments.

I did a short run this morning, 14 miles, to test the changes made to my Victor, namely a clutch rebuild and front brake replacement. I adjusted the clutch as you suggested, moving the adjustment screw in and out and following it with adjustments to the lever. The fundamental feature of the clutch was unchanged; the clutch disengages during the initial 1" squeeze of the lever. There is no clutch slippage while engaged, and no gear clash while disengaged; the clutch does what it's supposed to do, it simply feels wierd compared to my other bikes. The action is smooth, just takes getting used to, like shifting with the fight foot.

The front brake is another matter. When I rebuilt the bike 2 years ago, I replaced the rear brake shoes but not the front, as there was plenty of usable material on the shoes. The front brake has never been as positive as the rear brake, exactly the opposite to my experience on my Norton (ok, it has hydraulic disks). Replacing the shoes up front has not improved the braking. I realize that it take a few miles to bed the shoes, but there is still very little stopping power available with this brake, and I rely on the rear brake to do most of the stopping. Is this normal?

The BSA 8" single sided front brake does not have floating shoes, so these shoes will take a long time to wear until they are arced to the drum. 2 fixes, arc the shoes quickly using sanding paper glued to the inside of the drum, or fit Triumph SLS 8" shoes fitted 66 to 67, these shoes float and on first application will move to centralise the shoes in the drum and then the wear to be fully arced is much less.

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthrea ... Post310146

Yes, as been said, sand paper rubber cemented to the inside of the drum to arch in the shoes or they will never be worth a damm. I do this on all drums no matter the type. Quite course paper is used. Lube the pivot points with brake grease once all the works done. I also make my own heavy duty cables it helps a lot.

Norbsa and Kommando,

I did what you suggested and glued with rubber cement a strip of 80 grit sandpaper; the strip completely circled the inside of the drum. While the drum was apart I inspected the shoes; both were abraded only at the center 2 inches, so, as you predicted, only 2 inches of shoe was contacting the drum. I ran the shoes with mild pressure back and forth for a few minutes until the sandpaper lifted off the drum; both shoes at this point appeared to be uniformly abraded. I cleaned and reassembled the wheel and went for a short ride.

Unfortunately, no cigar. The front brake still has absolutely no effect in even slowing the bike. Only the rear brake saved me from an uncomfortable encounter with my garage door on my return. I apply the lever full on (the lever is about half way in at this point) to no effect. Pretty discouraging. The interior of the drum is clean, smooth, and shiny, and the shoes are new. The bike has 5100 original miles on it.

I'll pull it apart again this next week.

Thanks for your help.

Rick

rick in seattle said:

Norbsa and Kommando,

The interior of the drum is clean, smooth, and shiny, and the shoes are new. The bike has 5100 original miles on it.

I'll pull it apart again this next week.

Thanks for your help.

Rick

Click to expand...

How shiny is the drum? Mirror-like?

Dave,

I burnished the drum surface with 240 grit abrasive cloth prior to installing the new shoes.

The shoes need to be mounted on the backing plate for this to work right. If you arch them in with your hands you will get to 100% much too quick because you’re rocking when changing directions. New shoes sometimes are big enough to require some letting in to the drum with the sand paper glued in. I have popped off the sandpaper a few times trying to just get the assembly in there. As soon as it goes in and will turn you’re done. A hand made cable that is heavier than stock helps and be sure to check for bushing slop at the arm always use the shoes to centralize the wheel as you tighten of all the fasteners.

Thanks, Norbsa

I did have the shoes mounted in the plate when I performed the sandpaper trick. The paper kept coming off, so I'll use a more aggressive adhesive (removable with mineral spirits) this week when I redo the brake. The cable is a bit of a worry, as it comprises 3 pieces with the light switch, so if there is no improvement this time I'll spring for a new cable.

Thanks Again,

Rick