Clutch Adjustment Battle

Did you have this problem before you changed your clutch cable?

marshg246 said:

Assuming no bad parts, you still aren't getting the clutch pushrod adjusted right or the cable is not properly in the actuator. Unlike some other British bikes, the actuator can slip out of place if the adjustment is too loose. Look in the inspection hole of the gearbox. The cable end should be in the actuator and clearly visible. With the cable slacken at the handlebar, the actuator should have only slight up and down movement. If it does, loosen the clutch adjuster screw about a turn and see if the actuator stays in place but has a little more movement. There really is no way for the symptoms you have to exist if the parts are good and the actuator is in place.

The clutch actuator may well be misaligned if that lock ring was loose but that should only cause hard clutch pulling, not your symptom. If it were very loose, then the rod and actualtor would not in their proper places.

We need a picture in the gearbox inspection hole, and in the outer chaincase inspection hole where you adjust the clutch rod.

Also, many here hate the tab washer becuase the nut can come loose. That only happens if you're missing the steel washer that goes between the tab washer and nut - number 58:

View attachment 119467

Read here for my (and others) thoughts on tightening the nut (57) under the Primary Case heading - you're now WAY too tight: https://gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/Info/NortonTorque.aspx

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Thank you, Greg.
A fresh start this morning and after reading some from Greg's website, I knew I had to revisit the primary side. Indeed the clutch sprocket 06-2482 is loose again. maybe I broke the circlip when torquing a couple of days ago. I know that the fixing nut washer 06-3447 is in place. I know I has the clutch location spacer facing the correct way to the circlip. I will let you know when I disassemble everything shortly.

Mart UK said:

Did you have this problem before you changed your clutch cable?

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No, but I don't think it is cable related, but anything is possible.

ashman said:

What clutch plates are you using, stack height right, pressure plate lost its grip maybe, the big C clip sitting fully in its grove for the pressure plate, clutch plates in the right position.

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Clutch plates are sintered bronze that I presume to be OEM. A pretty copper color. I put them back in the same order they came out. Clutch action was consistent before the gear box overhaul. Clutch spring circlip 06-0751 is seated properly.

Jonez69 said:

Clutch to main shaft nut re-torqued to 70 ft lbs, now using two tabs of the 3 on the tab washer. I did this 2 days ago after finding it loose and thought this was my problem, however, the symptoms persist. Previously I had torqued it to 40 pounds as per Ashley the AN engineer in one of his videos. It was only saved by the single tab on the tab washer

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Here is what I just found this morning.... All washers in their correct place, two tabs used. Loose as a goose and threads away from disaster.
Now the question is whether or not my circlip is broken which means taking the stator and rotor off to pull the whole thing out. Fortunately, I was just in here for the gear box rebuild and I lightly greased the crank taper to facilitate easier removal of the sprocket. My only question is do I go that far. I would think I would have found evidence of the circlip being broken. I might hold off on complete teardown for a while and gather some opinions.

I pulled the clutch sprocket away from the inner case as far as the chain would allow and was able to confirm that my NEW circlip is still intact. Also I was able to maneuver the clutch location spacer with a pick, push it over the circlip, and confirm it is oriented correctly to the circlip. here are a couple of fuzzy pics using a mirror and my phone. I am going to reassemble the clutch using blue loctite, the tab washer and a setting of 50 ft lbs. Will report back!

That nut is not just coming loose - something is helping it. Before the tab washer there was just a spring washer. There is no tendency for either to come loose. The clutch center/mainshaft are turning "into" the nut. You nut was unscrewing hard enough to open the tabs. The job of the tabs is not to keep the nut tight - it should stay tight - it's to stop bad things from happening if the nut comes loose. Your nut has come WAY loose.

Look at the inside of the diaphragm spring to see if it is somehow contacting the clutch center nut. Tell us how many plain and friction plates you have - it appears you are short one.

Things to check but probably not the problem:
Take it apart and check the hub bearing.
The mainshaft, once the clutch is off should have no end float as it is locked in place by the bearing/retainer/nut on the timing side.

The 70 ft. lbs. is the problem.


A well document mistake in the manual.

A new circlip, 40 ft. lbs. & blue loctite will solve the problem.

Here's the thing to think about,.... it's simple,... You pull the lever and the clutch works fine, everything shifts fine, you find neutral fine..... Life is fine.

But then eventually you pull the clutch and all of a sudden there's an extra half inch of slack in the cable... Think about it, it's simple..

1 of 2 things has to happen:

1) either the pushrod got shorter which is impossible

2) the clutch basket moved backwards on the shaft so the distance is further away..

My guess is that you sheared the shaft circlip in such a way that it slides back in place and looks like it's ok from your half disassembled picture, but it's no good. If this is true, you will have witness marks from the clutch drum on the inside of the primary case where the inside of the case held the drum out when the circlip failed. I think this because I had it happen myself and the witness mark on the inner primary case were the proof. I changed the circlip and it was fixed. Hopefully, the shaft isn't damaged...

Once the basket overrideds the circlip, then there's no tension on the retaining nut, and it's free to spin...which explains the nut spinning

Edited to add: One of the other things that gets a witness mark from the circlip failing is the inner primary case gets pushed backwards against the swingarm pivot and it leaves a circular imprint of the pivot point of the swingarm on the back of the outside of the inner primary cover

Hi

Two thoughts

1) Lower the torque on that nut to 40. That will hold it with no danger of circlip compromise

2) I agree with Mart's direction as he wrote above

I had exactly your problem once when I put in a new cable. No fun riding home with no clutch.
I pulled the clutch cable out of the gearbox and out of the handle bar clutch. Then I checked the clutch
cable black outer cable went properly into the little metal things that surround the inner cable and I
used a little grease putting them back together. Then I reconnected all and checked that the little
metal things slid properly into the clutch handle bar assembly and into the gearbox. Guess what.
The little metal thing that surrounds the cable that slides into the outside of the gearbox was
very hard to push in. Some grease and mechanical assistance knocked it in and no problems since.
(You could test the idea by putting the old cable back in)

Dennis

o0norton0o said:

1) either the pushrod got shorter which is impossible

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I knew something was changing mid-ride, I was just convinced that I had taken care of the clutch fixing nut. Therefore, I was deeply puzzled and felt strongly that my problem lay with the gear box and clutch operating lever. Overnight, I decided that it was not as simple as getting the adjustment correct.
I got in the shop fairly early this morning and decided that the primary side and the clutch itself needed revisited.

The problem is solved! I put it all back together and did a 50 mile shake down through suburban traffic. Many times up and down the gears, finding neutral at stop lights, highway speeds, etc, and the bike performed flawlessly!

marshg246 said:

That nut is not just coming loose - something is helping it. Before the tab washer there was just a spring washer. There is no tendency for either to come loose. The clutch center/mainshaft are turning "into" the nut. You nut was unscrewing hard enough to open the tabs. The job of the tabs is not to keep the nut tight - it should stay tight - it's to stop bad things from happening if the nut comes loose. Your nut has come WAY loose.

Look at the inside of the diaphragm spring to see if it is somehow contacting the clutch center nut. Tell us how many plain and friction plates you have - it appears you are short one.

Things to check but probably not the problem:
Take it apart and check the hub bearing.
The mainshaft, once the clutch is off should have no end float as it is locked in place by the bearing/retainer/nut on the timing side.

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Above is Greg's thoughts from last night, which moved me in the right direction. Finding the nut loose again this morning, I knew I had done something wrong, and it occurred to me that when I use the clutch tool, I had the bolt threaded into the hub of the spring WAY beyond what was needed. I guess you could call it a paranoid reaction to the cheap Triumph clutch pullers sold nowadays. I wanted to be certain that I wasn't stripping threads. Yeah, I know,
a definite case of overkill or over thinking. I tend to get stupid that way sometimes. Greg asked me in a private message if the hub of the spring had any witness marks indicating it was fouling the nut and causing it to come loose somehow. There was no evidence of that, so I drew the conclusion that the tool's bolt was causing the problem. It is feasible that it contacted the nut when the spring pressure was released by the tool, then when I removed the tool by unscrewing the bolt, because it was pressed against it, it loosened the nut. There is a slight mark on the end of the tool's bolt that COULD be from contacting the nut, but I don't know for sure. All I know is that I used the tool with the bolt threaded only as far as the bottom of the spring's hub and now the clutch works great. Tab washer, 40 ft lbs and blue loctite. If I have another failure, I will add to this thread, but I honestly think it is solved.
Thank you to everyone who contributed, and special thank you to Greg Marsh!

Hi,
Surely it’s got to be oil on the clutch plates. Especially since it was working well then suddenly it became sticky. How much and what type of oil are you using in the primary. Is the main seal on the crankshaft leaking or displaced flooding the primary. My advice is to disassemble the clutch, wash in solvent and reassemble and see how it goes. I doubt you are doing anything wrong in adjustment, it’s very simple. I hope this helps. Alan

Jones,
Glad you got your problem solved. I keep reading your final post and cannot figure out what tool was giving you grief.Is it a clutch spring compressor?
Thanks,Mike

YING said:

Jones,
Glad you got your problem solved. I keep reading your final post and cannot figure out what tool was giving you grief.Is it a clutch spring compressor?
Thanks,Mike

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Yes, the clutch spring compressor tool. Instead of having it run in smartly just to the end of the spring's hub threading, I had it turned in several threads past. That is probably why they include a stop nut to prevent what I believe was happening. I have no proof to offer that the tool's bolt was turning my clutch nut loose, just that I made the change to how much bolt was exposed through the hub of the spring to just a thread or so, and my clutch now works as designed and a 50 mile ride proved it.

Alan L said:

Hi,
Surely it’s got to be oil on the clutch plates. Especially since it was working well then suddenly it became sticky. How much and what type of oil are you using in the primary. Is the main seal on the crankshaft leaking or displaced flooding the primary. My advice is to disassemble the clutch, wash in solvent and reassemble and see how it goes. I doubt you are doing anything wrong in adjustment, it’s very simple. I hope this helps. Alan

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200cc of automatic transmission fluid is what I use in the primary. I was also running ATF prior to the gear box rebuild when the clutch was holding its adjustment. I washed the plates prior to reassembly after the gear box overhaul. If you read the entire post, you will see that I found the clutch fixing nut, part number 04-0373, loose two times while experiencing the problems.

Great that you have solved it and Greg is awesome for giving his help and knowledge.
I have used blue loctite on my clutch nut and to loosen it I have to put a pipe wrench around the clutch inner assembly to stop it turning inside the
the clutch basket.

That nut 040373 has a locking tab washer 064459 in the later models , Look in a 1973 or later parts book, most people blue Lock- tite on the threads and tighten it to about 50Lbs. You would notice more freeplay at the handlebar lever as it loosened up and allowed the clutch drum to move outwards.
There is a location circlip 060752 on the main shaft behind the drum that could not be doing its job , if it continues to happen.

Jonez69 said:

Yes, the clutch spring compressor tool. Instead of having it run in smartly just to the end of the spring's hub threading, I had it turned in several threads past. That is probably why they include a stop nut to prevent what I believe was happening. I have no proof to offer that the tool's bolt was turning my clutch nut loose, just that I made the change to how much bolt was exposed through the hub of the spring to just a thread or so, and my clutch now works as designed and a 50 mile ride proved it.
View attachment 119519View attachment 119520

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Jones,
I have been using my clutch tool in a different position as your picture for years. I run the center bolt in just enough to grab all the threads of the spring and then lock that position with the inner nut and proceed to use the outer nut while holding the bolt of the tool stationary.That way everything stays in place.I could be wrong with this but it has worked for me
Mike

YING said:

Jones,
I have been using my clutch tool in a different position as your picture for years. I run the center bolt in just enough to grab all the threads of the spring and then lock that position with the inner nut and proceed to use the outer nut while holding the bolt of the tool stationary.That way everything stays in place.I could be wrong with this but it has worked for me
Mike View attachment 119533

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Ying, thanks, and I will indeed will be setting mine up just as you show here next time I use it. The more I think about it, the more I believe it was the cause of my clutch fixing nut coming loose.