Charging

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72Combat

72Combat

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Hi Guys, I had a quick look at the archive but ......

After riding up the country on sets of 'Big Jim" Ever readys....I sprung for a manual and had a read up,....
Went out and got a 1 ohm 5 watt resistor and connected it across the Alt output wire.....9 volts as the book said.
Then onto tracing the wires......found the charge light relay ( chunky thing that it is) wired up wrong......sorted that out and suddenly charging and light goes off.......but wait....
As my Ducati had spat the dummy at the new arrival and would not start I had to use the Norton for work..... Its not too bad as a commuter bike...light, manoeuvrable and zippy.
After 2 days of this I noticed the charging light staying on.....
The battery is a two year old sealed one ....looks like a house alarm battery.
I saw a local post that said old Brit charging systems boiled the feck out of gel batteries and Motoplatt type ones.
I'm leaning towards getting a new YB9-B or 12N9-4B-1 or summit.....
Any thoughts....?
 
My understanding, gel cells and the like do not like the vibration. I went for a Yuasa YTX9-BS sealed AGM type. The AGM hold up to the vibration and do not leak. It also fit in my central mounted oil tank arrangement. A bit pricy, but around $60USD. I'm sure you could find an aftermarket type for less.

Dave
69S
 
Hi- hate to repeat myself, but I don't think the gel cells like the "occasional use" schedule. Once you let a gel cell discharge or go flat, you can lose as much as 50% of its capacity, as well as building up internal resistance. The good old lead/acid batteries are pretty durable; so unless you keep your battery on a trickle charger, and use the bike regularly, I think the gel cells are a bad idea. But hey, really good to hear you are enjoying your bike more! Thank the Ducati for taking a break!
 
RoadScholar said:
Are your zenner, rectifier, stator, rotor original? Your harness?

RS
Click to expand...

Original layout, looks to have had the rectifier replaced. The Harness is a mess, top of the list to get binned.
I'm off to get a good old 12N9.....

I just wanna get it thru the summer as a rider....last thing I need is another 'project" bike. :roll:
cheers Guys
 
If the battery looks like "a house alarm" battery it is probably an AGM battery. I was running an UPS (uninterupted power source) battery in my bike until my UPS needed it! The question about the zener diode should be taken seriously, you might be overcharging it. If you go back to a standard battery keep a close eye on the electrolite level.

Russ
 
askdoctorday said:
Hi- hate to repeat myself, but I don't think the gel cells like the "occasional use" schedule. Once you let a gel cell discharge or go flat, you can lose as much as 50% of its capacity, as well as building up internal resistance. The good old lead/acid batteries are pretty durable; so unless you keep your battery on a trickle charger, and use the bike regularly, I think the gel cells are a bad idea. But hey, really good to hear you are enjoying your bike more! Thank the Ducati for taking a break!
Click to expand...

Absolutely my brother has a BMW1100 RS which got through 2 gel (BMW specified) batteries one lasted 2 years 1 lasted 6 months. I spoke to a spare part specialist in UK was told that they get a 50% failure rate iside 18 months. If you have a gel battery (These are not VRLA or SLA batteries or strictly speaking AGM batteries) they must be kept on batttery tender when not in use with a float voltage @ 13.0 volts).

G0 for an SLA or VRLA battery. I know everybody likes the Odyssey batteries but I had a bad experience with those on a Moto Guzzi 1100 they are also the costliest mayb e 3 times the cost of a known make VRLA. IMHO

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_chargers.html
 
72Combat said:
RoadScholar said:
Are your zenner, rectifier, stator, rotor original? Your harness?

RS
Click to expand...

Original layout, looks to have had the rectifier replaced. The Harness is a mess, top of the list to get binned.
I'm off to get a good old 12N9.....

I just wanna get it thru the summer as a rider....last thing I need is another 'project" bike. :roll:
cheers Guys
Click to expand...

The solid state parts of the charging system do ware, the wire terminations corrode and develop resistance; an un disturbed ground has considerably more resistance than it should; all these conditions drop voltage and sap current flow; something a Norton doesn't have a lot of to begine with. I suspect that a new battery and a a hard look at some of the connections/terminations will get you through the summer. After market harnesses are readily available and are easy to install, great opportunity to purchase a more powerful alternator and integrated VR/rectifier/capacitor and be done with your electrics for another 30+ years.

RS
 
Roadscholar's advice is good. My Zener failed last year and created a short circuit — nasty, and I was lucky I was close to home. The original charge regulation system functioned but was primitive. I fitted a Podtronics regulator/rectifier and ripped out the Zener — good riddance. A conventional lead acid battery is fine. As a by-the-by, I make sure the battery breather tube is well stuck onto the battery and I route other end of the tube into a little plastic bottle, vented at the top, to trap acid that can otherwise leak onto the back of the bike.
 
I had 2 gel (batteries plus X2-14L X2Power® AGM Battery) go bad. One went suddenly, without warning, new, out in the boonies. The other suddenly, without warning, new, at home. The first time they said something broke in side, duh. The other they said it was from lack of use (not the case, always trickle charged and checked(anal that way)) less than 6 months old.

Working Maintenance at a data center we have very large UPS units, gel type. We will be replacing these with Lead Acid at great expense along with major safeguards to be put in place, at great expense. Why? They are clean and safe but just do not cut the mustard when critical things are on the line.

I am on my third gel only because they reluctantly replaced it 1 last time, writing all kinds of ID crap on it like it was my fault. This spring I will spring for the lead acid.
 
It seems easy to get on the wrong side of AGM's (not gel) It seems these all get made in China now (big surprise). Python’s being one brand I have seen three of these go bad very quickly. 50.00 each with shipping but bad batteries in my book.
Back when they were hard to find and expensive made in the USA they lasted for at least five years. So the 80.00 divided by the five years made them OK batteries. 16.00 a year.
Now when I got my good one a Westco I was told that my old charger would not be good any more and that I would need a purpose built one. That it needed 13-14 volts and no more tha.8 amps. It’s a strange charger that you can’t use on a battery that’s way down it just won’t work.
Than some one wrote this on anther board sounds right to me. to quote
AGM chargers
captain disko


The sealed, valve-regulated case construction and the absorbed glass-mat plate technology are what make these batteries such a great replacement for the old free electrolyte batteries on our bikes. They are highly vibration resistant and spill proof.

They are still a lead acid battery and as such need to be charged at between 13.8 and 14.4 volts, up to 80% capacity. 13.8 is the minimum voltage needed to force a reversal of the electro-chemical process and actually charge the battery. AGM's have very low internal resistance relative to older free electrolyte styles and so can accept maximum charge current during this "bulk stage of the charge cycle.

Above 80% the charging voltage can be maintained but the current tapered off until the full state is achieved. This stage is called "acceptance" At this point charger output should drop to a 13.2 volt "float" level. To maintain an AGM battery at above 13.8 volts when fully charged will cause irreplaceable evaporation of the electrolyte.

This is the optimum charge cycle and one which the old transformer-based Ferro resonant chargers couldn't meet. The new "smart" multi stage chargers are designed to maintain a battery without overcharging and the electrolyte loss and plate damage that overcharging would cause. Using an old style battery tender will cause such damage to an AGM battery.

Voltage leaking through a properly functioning zener would fool the algorithm in a smart charger. It would see a battery in which the internal resistance was not increasing towards a full charge state and thus incorrectly maintain the acceptance voltage, eventually damaging what is in fact a full battery.

I have always disconnected my batteries for storage, and recommend it for safety, if nothing else. The AGM batteries are a great improvement but they need to be maintained correctly with a charger that is designed to meet their charging needs. It's also a good idea to check the output of the bikes charging system and ensure that it is below a voltage that would damage the battery. End of quote
Then you need to see what the charging system on your bike is up to most of the time.
Without checking how many AMP’s are left when you run down the road you could be cooking the new battery I.E. say without use of the headlight at over 3000RPM. I just wish the people like POD would make a regulator for our new batteries. That would help a lot.
Now we have the new iron batteries that are less than half the weight and triple the cost and should go for five years or more. Maybe POD will make one for these.
 
I know, but don't say yuck. The AGM battery in my 2000 Miata lasted until this last fall. It still worked but was weak. Made in Japan, but due to shipping costs you cannot get them here. That's why I went with the Yuasa AGM, at least it's made here in the USA, but that's no guarantee.

Lost of people were ruining the Miata batteries when they came out because they were using quick chargers on them. My Yuasa says to charge at 0.9A for 5-10 hrs, or 4A for 1 hr. We'll see how it lasts.

Dave
69S
 
Thanks for the tips guys, I also think its time I tossed my 25 year old battery charger as well.
At this stage I'm going to get the bike running with a new battery, enjoy the summer and go thru it in the winter.

pvisseriii said:
Working Maintenance at a data center we have very large UPS units, gel type. We will be replacing these with Lead Acid at great expense along with major safeguards to be put in place, at great expense. Why? They are clean and safe but just do not cut the mustard when critical things are on the line.
.
Click to expand...

I too work at a data centre and we are in the process of building a new one, with flash UPS's, battery monitoring, big Cats. I find it amusing that we are in the 21st century and our fancy internet and cloud computing is relying on 19th century engineering in the form of lead acid batteries and diesel generators... coupled with a civilization based on a finite resource...... :roll: oh well..... back to 40's engineered bikes.... :D
 
Silly question ,,,,, would it be any worse for wear if on a pre-MK III you added another zener?


Tim_S
 
I too work at a data centre and we are in the process of building a new one, with flash UPS's, battery monitoring, big Cats. I find it amusing that we are in the 21st century and our fancy internet and cloud computing is relying on 19th century engineering in the form of lead acid batteries and diesel generators... coupled with a civilization based on a finite resource...... :roll: oh well..... back to 40's engineered bikes.... :D[/quote]

I've been in the electrical generation business (nuclear) for more than 30 years. What you're looking for at a data center is RELIABLE temporary power (UPS) and short term generation (Diesel). You can't get any more reliable than lead acid and diesel generation as a short term backup. Unfortunately our generation policies are being directed by non-technical people which would be similar, in the Norton world, to taking maintenance advice from a sewing blog.
 
would it be any worse for wear if on a pre-MK III you added another zener
------------------------------------
No Tim, you can't put zener's in parallel as one will always conduct before the other, even if they are both 12 volt devices,
Dave.
 
JimR said:
I too work at a data centre and we are in the process of building a new one, with flash UPS's, battery monitoring, big Cats. I find it amusing that we are in the 21st century and our fancy internet and cloud computing is relying on 19th century engineering in the form of lead acid batteries and diesel generators... coupled with a civilization based on a finite resource...... :roll: oh well..... back to 40's engineered bikes.... :D
Click to expand...

I've been in the electrical generation business (nuclear) for more than 30 years. What you're looking for at a data center is RELIABLE temporary power (UPS) and short term generation (Diesel). You can't get any more reliable than lead acid and diesel generation as a short term backup. Unfortunately our generation policies are being directed by non-technical people which would be similar, in the Norton world, to taking maintenance advice from a sewing blog.[/quote]


Are they the sorts we have had lately touring the new facility asking " Where is the Internet kept"... :roll:
 
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