Centre of Gravity Commando vs world

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Ms Peel's tertiary function is built biplane like obsolete in sight and sound.
Secondary purpose in 'her life' is to run circles around anything else in phase 2 cornering, ie: leaned counter steering two tires in effective traction.
Main purpose is to give me multi road orgasms of phases 3, 4 and 5, rain or shine.
My philosophy is lighten stiffen the ends and pile the mass in a movable middle.

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1235495 ... 1179HGKSxw
Centre of Gravity Commando vs world



Captain Norton library archive
http://home.clara.net/captain.norton/cn ... tml#3.20.1
20.1 Centre Of Gravity.

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 20:51:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Joe Schofield.

As ever (well, often) from this contributor, here's two pennyworth on the centre of gravity debate inspired by a book I once read (and still posses).

Vic Willoughby (veteran, respected UK motorcycler - not biker! - journalist) and Tony Foale (well known 70's and 80's UK frame builder and innovator) wrote a book together (published in 1984) on chassis design called 'Motorcycle Chassis Design - the Theory and the Practice. I've been studying it in the light of the recent thread on Centre of Gravity, and I've extracted the following lines which may be of help:

"... Just as important as the amount of the machine's weight are its distribution and, as the following considerations show, the location of the mass centre.

Balance. Low weight and a low centre of gravity both facilitate good balance. Fig 2.22 (nice illustration of low c of g and high c of g and proportional unbalancing effects) shows how, for a given angle of lean, the unbalancing couple is directly proportional to the weight and the height of the centre of gravity.

Angle of lean. The angle of lean necessary when cornering is slightly affected by the centre of gravity height.

Weight transfer. Under braking, weight is transferred from the rear wheel to the front; under acceleration the transfer is in the opposite direction. Lengthening the wheelbase decreases the weight transfer, as does lowering the mass centre height and reducing mass."

And so on. The bottom line of all of this - and there's a lot more - is that the closer the centre of gravity is to the roll axis, i.e. the line joining the two tyre contact areas, the more desirable it is from the point of view of a rapid and effortless change in banking angle.

What's interesting here is that we knew all this all along, and so did the chassis designers at Norton, Triumph, BSA, etc. That's why the cases of Brit twins are snugged down as low as possible between the frame rails, and why nothing contemporary, or possibly built much later, will change direction quite as quickly as any low-slung Brit Iron dinosaur. I'll cite the Norton Dominator here of which I have direct (650SS, once-upon-a-time) experience, but you fill in your own preference on the dotted line.

I don't wish to cast aspersions at Japanese designers, but I will state categorically my own belief that they have a different definition of the word "design" than classical Brit Iron designers did. Japanese designers gave us anti-dive systems, balance shafts, on-demand extra choke carbs and EXUP exhaust valving. These things are clever stuff by any standards but invariably treat the symptom rather than the cause. "Get yourself out of a design problem by designing something else that is both clever and complex, for this in itself is a goal," might have been the reigning orthodoxy at Japanese design schools. It's smart, expensive and trick... and it works, sort of. British designers - and others - marched to the beat of a different drum: (forgive me from quoting from William Bushnell Stout, designer of the 1920's Ford Tri-Motor air transport) "Simplicate and add more lightness".

One of these concepts is a purist design philosophy, the other simply a means to an end. When, barely slackening pace, I gracefully left-right-left at high speed through a series of tight bends, feeling for the road on either side with my toes, I'm grateful that the people who designed my bike's chassis thought it wise to get the weight down and put it as close to the road as they could.

Joe Schofield.

Centre of Gravity Commando vs world
 
Might as well be Paul. My boot gets pinched out of folding reset pegs when I get low enough to prevent high sides going too far over board. There is controversy about the bicyclers being a photo shopped pix but I take it as possible. I've considered caster wheels on bar ends but figured they'd just snag and jerk fork. The places I most tested Ms Peel handling extremes is about twice as sharp of bends. I paced them off at about 15 foot radius 120' turns, one after another for 3 miles, known as Jasper Diaster by bike clubs- magazines. This is 1st gear stuff for modern sports bikes, my SV650 included as the fatso tires can't take it faster and no room to drift but within ones lane as blinds in public are deadly anywhere. On Peel I worked up to 55 entry then had to snick 2nd for next one to exit over 65. Only way to change direction vectors that fast is supermotard style using sides of tires to slow from smacking bluff face and at same time fling up right to hook up for next turn set up. Even so I had to really grit teeth to over power Peel's 120 mm dual thread tire at last instant at full lean as she was still in good traction.
3 things can happen then, pulls a sideways wheelie to drop front down in sharper
turn > phase 3, or jerks a hi side just right-time > phase 4, or crash. I've not the power yet to pull off phase 5 turns as on THE Gravel, nor balls enough to test that in public anymore as already a full shift ahead of anything else out there. I truly feel nothing can hook and handle like a tamed isolastic Commando on skinny's.

Here's form video post of what I want to exceed on make over Ms Peel.
phase-steering-topping-out-t8168.html

Centre of Gravity Commando vs world
 
I do not understand why the new CBR1000RR and followed by the new ZX1000 Kawasaki (is that right?) both tout a "mass centralization" theory.

The above Captain Norton cut/paste quote discusses center of gravity (COG) defined as the center point between tire contact patches. This puts the engine/crankshaft as low as possible without dragging timing or drive cases on the ground.

We can also think of COG as being defined by the center point between the axles (not the tires' contact patches); this puts the engine/crankshaft higher.

To my mind, I see the axles as the axis of the lever; the lever being the motorcycle and the rider's leverage points being the handlebars, seat, and the footpegs. The road's leverage points, against the rider, are the contact patches. We lever the bike around the axis of the center line against the contact patches.

In thinking about the "mass centralization" theory, I see a lot of weight below the axles as useful in rolling the bike around the garage, giving it a lightweight feeling but not so good when I have to lever it over the center line of the axles to lean the bike left or right.

I own a late model CBR1000RR and the thing is scary to heavy at low speed compared to my Commando. The Honda has a lot of weight up high and it gets tipsy, while the Norton is a piece of cake to maneuver at low speeds. At speed, the Honda loses that tipsy feeling; it flicks from side to side effortlessly. I can't say that the Norton is harder to steer from side to side, it flicks easily too.

Complicating this is the effect of the wheels, both being big gyroscopes.
 
Oh yeah good insights for me John. I now know what the ideal feels like in a totally neutral handling set up. THE Gravel reveals all. Your post made me conceive better what I've sensed in various bikes, untamed Cdo to Vtwin and inline sports bikes.

On THE Grit
The un-tamed isolastic felt like the tires skiping side ways more than upper bike tilting on patches. This makes sense now if as you say the axles are the pivot point of lean forces. Its as if you took your palm knife edge down and slide it side to side to get bike leaned. On my SV-twin it felt more planted pivot on contact patches and so did my tri-linked isolastics.

On Tarmac
At limits inline 4 would be a fight to stay down and tended to fling up, on my SV-twin it fell over easy but was a fight to get back up in time. On my Combats, especially the linked one they leaned pretty easy up or down with steel rims and tended to stay where I leave them hands off. Trouble with un-linked iso was the wigges built up and changed lean up or down. Not so on linked Peel stayed put hands off on any lean set and powering up or down - short of tire spin and drift, then needed to hold bars stable by mostly just damping of road texture following. So far as I've tested, Ms Peel is totally neutral and takes more or less force input on forks to change lean. As Bob Patton describes it, relaxed arms and just body English to surf the turn, no compensation needed. Seriously at the rates Ms Peel allows I have to stay centered and locked solid to bike of get tossed off or scrapped off. I can move around on her quite a bit and nothing happens till some delay begins to change lean and aim.

I'm lifting Peel 2" both ends d/t hi centering and more lean angle but wonder if that will upset her neutral behavior. I have seen hi skill elite rider leaned to max balancing front and rear traction perfectly And Bike simply tilted up pivoting on bike/rider Cog and lift both tires horizontal at once and take out other close riders with him. Ms Peel will not do that she stays planted and drifts outward at same angle till I do something to change it, power out tire or work forks.

There is further aspects too, on up hill turns more power lifts bike up, on down hill turns more power lowers bike, all of em I've tried. I'll measure Cog in both planes some day - even with me on it, somehow. Then work height up and down to see what if feels like. i hate falling down almost as much as have to use athletics to control a motorcycle, that for them young whipper snappers on moderns I now shun in spade to really fling a turn or facet a sweeper.

Manual lists Cdo's CoG as 19.5" up.
My real concern is I have to trip Peel down by power she sticks so well can turn forks fast enough and then there a phase fork flip back like a sail boat changing tack. This low sides her then instant later hi sides. I love this state and CoG definitely matters to get launch and landing right, each every time. Other bikes will do it too but terrifying judders through chassis I won't put up with no more.
That is for young whipper snapper athletic pilots better than me.
 
I suspect in the bicycle shot they are not moving. Just sitting with knee on ground. :lol:
 
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