Can't get 1st and 4th gears at same adjustment.

G'day everyone. 1938 Norton ES2. First of all thanks to the guy's that responded to my Electrickery post. Very helpful. I have another problem that needs resolving before I worry about that matter at the moment. I can not get 1st gear and 4th gear with the same adjustment on adjuster rod. If I make the rod short enough so it will pull the selector on bottom of box up far enough to go into 1st without jumping out it will not then go far enough down to get 4th into gear. If I extend it just enough to get 4th into gear then I can't get 1st. All other nuts are tight. Here is a couple of photo's. One of the bike and a couple of the adjusting rod and gear selector box setup. If there is other names for these bits please let me know. Ignore big long pin in bottom of adjuster rod as it was only there while I'm playing around with it. Easier to pull in and out. So I have exhausted the possibilities I know of with my limited knowledge. Any suggestions ? There seems to be a fair amount of slop within gear selector box, eg gearstick/shaft moves around a fair bit. If I disconnect rod, gear selector on bottom of box works normally when moved by hand and rolling bike slowly forward, can get all gears. Thanks
http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv54/ozzie1974/1938 Norton ES2/1938NortonES2.jpg
http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv54/ozzie1974/1938 Norton ES2/gearadjustmentrod.jpg
http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv54/ozzie1974/1938 Norton ES2/selectorboxadjustmentrod.jpg
http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv54/ozzie1974/1938 Norton ES2/Gearselectorbox.jpg

Lovely bike.

Is this on the move, or standing still ?
Standing still doesn't really count, its on the road that matters.

A possible reason for this, and I stress possible, is that the bush(es) behind the camplate inside the gearbox or bush behind the toothed gear thingy that drives the camplate are worn - so that something is losing movent along the way.
Looking at the 2 boltheads on the outside of the box (between the gearbox and back of the engine) when you try to change gear, can you see them a rockin or a wigglin. They should just rotate, smoothly, no sideways movement at all. There is a bronze bush for each in the gearbox casing, which can be replaced to cure this if they are loose.

I can't remember, its also possible the two are not meshed correctly inside - but can still do like you say with the rods disconnected. There is a procedure in the manual to set and adjust all this, do you have this ? My terminology may be off, a while since played with these things.

Have fun.

Hi Rohan, The two bolts you speak of are right down the bottom of gearbox I presume with the actual gear selector attached to bottom one and the bolt head above it just rotating when changing gears. There is very slight movement in bottom one. If I actuate the selector by hand can get each gear. There is a fair bit of movement through gear stick shaft though. Also can you tell me how many designated positions the gear shift should have 4 or 5 ? One for each gear or one for each gear and one for neutral. I've attached a small video to help explain what I mean. thanks Glenn
http://s669.photobucket.com/albums/...S2/?action=view&current=MVI_1801-Computer.mp4
The manual I have is a copy for Norton motorcycle 1939 that is very basic in all descriptions. I can't find any more detailed info. I don't even know what this type of gearbox is called. Is this a dolls head gearbox ?

Hi ozzie, yes that is the dolls head box.
If it is of any help i have the workshop manual for a 16H, which also has the dolls head box - happy to scan and email that section if that is of help.
I'm newish to these old beauties myself so i'm sure Rohan will be better able to help with advice.
Nearly forgot to say - very nice find.

Hi ntst8, That would be great if you could send through a scanned copy of gearbox section. Email address ozziesaddress@yahoo.com.au Much appreciated. I do remember reading somewhere bike manufacturers didn't bring out detailed manuals until after the war. How true this is I don't know.

ozzie041974 said:

Hi ntst8, That would be great if you could send through a scanned copy of gearbox section. Email address ozziesaddress@yahoo.com.au Much appreciated. I do remember reading somewhere bike manufacturers didn't bring out detailed manuals until after the war. How true this is I don't know.

Click to expand...

All done , i hope they are clear enough.
You may well be right on the manuals but there are a few books which turn up from time to time on EBay or in 2nd hand book shops which cover the older machinery - a Norton one by E M Franks is worth looking out for. He was an ex Norton engineer. They are A5 size so small pictures.

Thanks ntst8, Some very useful information I did not have. Would you be able to check out the video I sent in above and then tell me how many positions your gearstick has for how many gears. No rush. Sorry guy's the video takes a little bit to load. That was as small as I could make it, 25mb. In the meantime I will examine this manual excerpt for a solution.

I don't know about the video or gearstick positions, but the camplate inside the gearbox has a notch for each of the gears and one for neutral. Here in Oz we'd count that as 5.

Can't remember the terminology, but the gearbox has a camplate indexing plunger - its the flat-bladed pointy nose spring loaded thingy that clicks into the 5 notches in the camplate as it rotates. Its accessible via that big 'nut' up under the front of the gearbox. I think the notch for neutral is not quite as definitive as for the gears (?), it needs to be able to click through neutral for the 1-2 or 2-1 changes. If the pointy bit wears, the clicking into the notches can be difficult to impossible. Not sure that is your problem though, I think your bushes are worn and not getting the full travel of the camplate... ?

Ozzie
The bottom lever looked to be disconnected in the video and this is the one which moves the gearbox internals, so the run through the gears was only testing the positive stop mechanism - which is mounted in the separate dolls head section.
I haven't had a close look at the positive stop in action so not sure whether you find neutral via that or just via the camplate - which was disconnected in that test. Presumably via the camplate otherwise you couldn't go through neutral from first to second?
I'm told the connecting rod should be set up in 2nd or 3rd gear. Supposedly if it is set up in first gear you might run out of throw before 4th.
If that doesn't work then it sounds like time to check for wear and tear on internals, end float etc - at which point it all gets a bit tricky for me.

Hi Rohan and Iain. Thought I'd keep you updated. Yesterday I pulled the cover off the gear stick positive stop mechanism to check full travel of ratchet etc. Thought I'd look there first before delving into the gearbox. The positive stop mechanism in back of ratchet does does only have 4 positions so as Rohan suggested the neutral is only on the camplate inside gearbox. I am getting all 4 positions as indicated in video although the sloppiness of the spindles on ratchet/ pawl carrier through to gearstick is more than I would like. There doesn't seem to be any way to firm it all up. There are no bearings/bushes for it to pass through on front cover or rear cover. I can't see any bearings or bushes on explosion diagram Iain provided either. There is a spindle felt washer that I don't have but I presume this is more to keep grease in than anything else. Mine has been replaced by o- ring. Surely gearsticks on all dollshead gearboxes don't move around like this. Anyway down to the other end. On the bottom of gearbox. The gear select lever or as I now know the cam plate quadrant lever, does have a slight bit of movement in it from side to side suggesting a bush it must run through is very slightly worn. Now if I use this to change gears while rotating wheel I can get !st,neutral,2nd,neutral,3rd,neutral,4th in this order going down. Each position seams to have a stop which I don't think is right ? I'm guessing the neutrals between 2nd & 3rd & 4th are not supposed to be there. When the control rod is connected I am getting to this last neutral position and not to the 4th gear which I can if I then disconnect rod and press further down by hand. If I make rod long enough to get to this 4th gear it is no longer short enough to get up to first gear. Seems I may be going internal although I really wanted to avoid it. Any more thoughts ? Would the slightly worn bush be causing this do you think ?

Have you had this problem out on the road, or only in the workshop ?
What does the workshop manual say about this ? - I'm sure I've read an adjustment procedure to fix this, I do remember it was a little tricky to set up, and this is a not unknown problem.
But can't remember what the nub of the matter was. I'll have a look for whatever Norton booklet it was in.

If the bits in the dolls head are getting sloppy, it is possible to have them welded or bushed to reduce this. They can get pretty worn before this should be necessary though.

This is called getting to know your beast.
And establishing a master-servant bond....!

At the moment I'm feeling very much like the servant. But this is part of the joy of old motorcycles is it not ?? Ok maybe I'm not tht happy at the moment :? What better excuse to spend day's on end in one's shed. I had the problem out on the road as well, just running up and down my street. I would find neutral popping up in between gears and couldn't get 4th. I actually had to bend down to the control rod and select gears there a couple of times. Since then I've only had it up on the stand rotating wheel while changing gears. Basically all my manual say's is to make sure bolt on rocking shaft spindle is tight (still don't know which one that is. Not even mentioned on explosion diagram Iain sent me so I just make sure they are all tight) and then make any adjustments using the lower jaw on control rod. Well that don't work. There is just to much travel between 1st and 4th on the cam plate quadrant lever for some reason. I pulled the cam plate indexing plunger out this afternoon and that looks good as do locating marks in top of cam plate. I've run out of idea's now without going internal.

It looks to me like a journey into the unknown is warranted.
In my limited miles to date i on occasion seem to only just find 4th but have never had a false neutral issue.
Franks stresses the importance of centering the camplate when assembling, if that wasn't done presumably there might be a lack of reach at one end of the box?
I could also scan the relevant pages from Franks, but am out of time today and will be out of town for a few days so will be the weekend at the earliest - unless you solve the mystery in the meantime.
Best of luck

The short paragraph found so far on chasing gear selection problems mentions checking to ensure the ends of the external clevis rods and pins are not worn - so no lost movement in the external rods.

It also mentions checking the ( internal) bronze thrust washer for wear - this controls endfloat of the mainshaft, and if too much can cause gear selection and jumping out of gear problems. I recall this now, having once had a laydown box that could be relied on to jump out of gear when you least expected it. (roughly same internals).

You can test for mainshaft endfloat by seeing if the clutch / mainshaft can be pushed pulled in and out more than a mere trace. At this point you are planning to delve inside things...

Good to see you have the master/servant thing sort out.
Now you know where you stand, happy delving !

Cheers.

I've discovered something very interesting and after checking multiple times and cross referencing with photos of a camplate off the internet. I'm still trying to get my head around it. When I took the index plunger out to check correct travel of camplate, I took note of where the 3 notches close together were, ie, 1st, neutral and 2nd. Now when I have gearbox in 4th gear the index plunger is in the first of these 3 notches which I think is the notch for 1st. Now say your looking from the front of the bike towards the rear, as I lift camplate quadrant lever to go up gears the camplate spins in an anticlockwise direction. First to the notch that should be neutral then to 2nd, then the ones that are further apart. So when I get to first gear it is actually in the notch I think is for 4th gear. Now I don't think you can even align it wrong for this to happen. I actually think the camplate is on it's spline back to front. :shock: Of course I could be completely wrong. I thought the camplate and spline were one piece from the factory but in the photo's I found they look they could come apart . Do they ? So would it be possible to to put camplate on back to front ?

ozzie041974 said:

I found they look they could come apart . Do they ? So would it be possible to to put camplate on back to front ?

Click to expand...

They can be pressed apart, I've heard.
But the notches are then entirely in the wrong place to get any gears ?
And if you have 3 gears in the right place in the right order, but can only get 1st, or 4th, don't think that is the problem....

So, Today I delved into the unknown. Hope I can get it back together again :roll: Anyway I've taken a picture of the camplate to show position of notches. Unfortunately I didn't have the right size socket to get the last nut off the main shaft so wont have it out till tomorrow. Can't get camplate out without removing this. As you will notice the 3 notches starting at the bottom one are 1st, neutral and 2nd. Carrying on to the other side we come to 3rd and 4th notches but are out of sight in this photo. All the photo's I can find as well as diagrams I have from manuals, show the 3 notches on the other side and 3rd and 4th notches here where they would be in view. I'm convinced camplate is on it's spline back to front but why anyone would have got it pressed off the spline beats me. Here is a link to a picture of one on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....279&clk_rvr_id=236985240878&item=220573995279 I found better pictures couple of days ago but now can't find them. So what do we think ?

http://i.ebayimg.com/22/!B2f)Hr!CGk~$(KGrHqEOKm4E)3u+Ws+NBMiw0t!P9Q~~_12.JPG
We think that your camplate is totally normal.
Or someone would have neutral between 3rd-4th ?

What is your bronze thrust washer and the endfloat like ?

(P.S. Do different gearboxes have different camplates - anyone have parts books to hand ?).

Today, I pulled the camplate out and turned it around the other way. Guess what ? Apart from having a nice neutral position now it hasn't made any difference in my ability to get 1st and 4th at same setting. I still have to muck around trying to find 2nd and 3rd. Now excuse my ignorance but the big bronze washer inside main gear on picture is the thrust washer right ? It came out with the main shaft so I just left it on there and didn't even really look at it. What exactly should I be looking for to know if it's ok ? Also this end float. What is it exactly and how do I measure it. I'm guessing its movement in main shaft either in the lengthways motion or side to side at clutch end. Do I measure it with clutch basket and sprocket removed ?
I have ordered a copy of the manual by E.M Franks and also a copy of Modern Motorcycle Mechanics by J.B Nicholson which was also recommended to me so hopefully they will greatly expand my knowledge.
Thanks Rohan for your patience and help so far. It is greatly appreciated.

No patience required at our end, just curious to see this resolved.
Odd that there are what look to be opposite camplates available.

Endfloat is mainshaft moving in and out.
Clutch can be fitted or not, makes no difference.

Anything more than the minimal running clearance required means that movement is lost when changing gears - instead of the dogs going in, the shaft moves along instead.
Can't remember what the manual says about the thrust washer, isn't here a cut across it for lube that wears away. Laydown box (well worn) that jumped out of gear had about 1/4" endfloat, which is almost 1/4" too much.

Bent shifter forks can sometimes cause problems, and folks have reported that swapping them around can fix/cause problems, examine well ?

Opethiselps.

P.S. To repeat something said earlier, the box won't always change gears just standing still, it has to be turned over - or engine running. We have taken note of this, haven't we.