Cams road test PW3 vs JS2

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yves norton seeley

yves norton seeley

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Hi there,
First, I wish to tell you what I have done before on my Seeley 850:

Maney crankcases
Maney HC pistons
Maney cylinder
Maney 2 in 1 exhaust
Fullauto head
Dominator engineering crank
Commos timing chain tensioner
CNW 35 Keihin carbs
CNW intake manifold
CNW primary chain case
TTI 5 gearbox
Black diamond valves
Racing valves springs
Tri spark ignition
PW3 camshaft
Stock head gasket
Stock primary triplex chain

Now to the fact:
I use the Selley only on the road and once a year I do a sprint (1/8 mile)
At the last sprint I was the fasted on 30 feets, I broke the PW3 in two pieces, between first and second lobes
There was no other damage on the engine, so I put an new PW 3
This winter I open my engine and discover a crack in the part of the camshaft were the key is
So I decide to buy the Jim Smith JS2 camshaft with the lifters and valves springs
To day I did my first road test and here are the results:

No sensitive difference in power with the PW 3, but I feel that I can find more power with the JS 2, but how?
The engine give me the feeling to rev smoother, with les mecanical noise
The idee to change the PW3 for a JS 2 was not the power, but first off all the realibility, I do 10.000 Km a year with the Seeley and don't like to stay near the road
Next step will be the JS long rods and pistons

Yves Belgium
 
Hi Yves

Did you used to race the Seeley? I used to race against a guy called Yves at Chimay who had a Seeley Norton.
 
I'd be looking at 3 things - cam timing, exhaust set up and gearing. You need to find out at what revs you can get the most power then increase or decreased the gearing so you always stay in the best part of the rev range - optimization. If your bike is already fairly well jetted for all throttle openings, it won't change much, because of other changes unless you change the muffler. I'd start with the least restrictive under your local noise laws. If you advance the cam it will get louder.
 
pommie john said:
Hi Yves

Did you used to race the Seeley? I used to race against a guy called Yves at Chimay who had a Seeley Norton.
Click to expand...

It's not me, must be Yves Van Buylaere, I was a Side car rider for years
 
acotrel said:
I'd be looking at 3 things - cam timing, exhaust set up and gearing. You need to find out at what revs you can get the most power then increase or decreased the gearing so you always stay in the best part of the rev range - optimization. If your bike is already fairly well jetted for all throttle openings, it won't change much, because of other changes unless you change the muffler. I'd start with the least restrictive under your local noise laws. If you advance the cam it will get louder.
Click to expand...

Cam timing is spot on like JS recomand, gearing is OK for road use (100 Miles / H at 5.500 RPM)
The exhoust is a Maney racing 2 in 1 full open and some houses from my street colapse when I start the Seeley
My wish is to have a bike that I can ride hard without conrod salade on the tarmac every 100 miles
 
Sounds like there is not much you can do to get more performance except perhaps jet it better using standard ignition timing to suit the fuel.
 
yves norton seeley said:
pommie john said:
Hi Yves

Did you used to race the Seeley? I used to race against a guy called Yves at Chimay who had a Seeley Norton.
Click to expand...

It's not me, must be Yves Van Buylaere, I was a Side car rider for years
Click to expand...


Yep, Yves Van Buylaere. I used to enjoy racing with him. And Jean Pierre Capel, a great racer. I had the best time racing in Belgium.
 
pommie john said:
yves norton seeley said:
pommie john said:
Hi Yves

Did you used to race the Seeley? I used to race against a guy called Yves at Chimay who had a Seeley Norton.
Click to expand...

It's not me, must be Yves Van Buylaere, I was a Side car rider for years
Click to expand...


Yep, Yves Van Buylaere. I used to enjoy racing with him. And Jean Pierre Capel, a great racer. I had the best time racing in Belgium.
Click to expand...

Yves Van Buylaere was not on the races in the pass two years, but hope you will be back one day in Belgium
Jean Pierre is one of my friends to
Small world
 
acotrel said:
Sounds like there is not much you can do to get more performance except perhaps jet it better using standard ignition timing to suit the fuel.
Click to expand...
I spend days on the dyno to find the good carburation, at the end I ask one one my friends to make needels to my specifications, the real good one was not to find in the Keihin catalogue
To me the best Dyno test is when you use your bike and you feel happy
 
yves norton seeley said:
Hi there,
First, I wish to tell you what I have done before on my Seeley 850:

Maney crankcases
Maney HC pistons
Maney cylinder
Maney 2 in 1 exhaust
Fullauto head
Dominator engineering crank
Commos timing chain tensioner
CNW 35 Keihin carbs
CNW intake manifold
CNW primary chain case
TTI 5 gearbox
Black diamond valves
Racing valves springs
Tri spark ignition
PW3 camshaft
Stock head gasket
Stock primary triplex chain

Now to the fact:
I use the Selley only on the road and once a year I do a sprint (1/8 mile)
At the last sprint I was the fasted on 30 feets, I broke the PW3 in two pieces, between first and second lobes
There was no other damage on the engine, so I put an new PW 3
This winter I open my engine and discover a crack in the part of the camshaft were the key is
So I decide to buy the Jim Smith JS2 camshaft with the lifters and valves springs
To day I did my first road test and here are the results:

No sensitive difference in power with the PW 3, but I feel that I can find more power with the JS 2, but how?
The engine give me the feeling to rev smoother, with les mecanical noise
The idee to change the PW3 for a JS 2 was not the power, but first off all the realibility, I do 10.000 Km a year with the Seeley and don't like to stay near the road
Next step will be the JS long rods and pistons

Yves Belgium
Click to expand...

Hi Yves,
That's a fine specification you have there!
Just for my own interest, could you describe the power delivery characteristics with the JS 2 cam?
And what compression are you running?
 
Thanks for sharing your results. So many of us speculate, when someone actually spends the money and builds the bike and puts it on the dyno, and THEN, shares their results - that is good, very good. Thanks
 
Hi Yves,

that's a nice sounding package you've described. Could we persuade you to post some pictures?

If you are looking for more power, there isn't a lot left that you haven't already done. If you wanted more power at the top of the power band, you could switch to individual pipes and megaphones, but you'd lose some of the mid-range power that the Maney pipe gives. For street riding and racing on shorter circuits, I believe the Maney system works better, but for very fast tracks with long straights, individual megas will be faster. You could pick up some more top end horsepower by modifying the head for larger valves, and going to larger carbs, but that's another mod that could reduce low to mid-range power and response. My favorite suggestion for more power throughout the band, with no real disadvantage, would be more displacement. As long as you are already planning to use Jim Schmidt's long rod kit, you could get it for a 920 cc engine at about the same cost. You could probably send your cylinder back to Steve and have him bore and sleeve it to 81 mm. I've run several 920 engines, in both street and race bikes, and I really liked them.

Ken
 
lcrken said:
Hi Yves,

that's a nice sounding package you've described. Could we persuade you to post some pictures?

If you are looking for more power, there isn't a lot left that you haven't already done. If you wanted more power at the top of the power band, you could switch to individual pipes and megaphones, but you'd lose some of the mid-range power that the Maney pipe gives. For street riding and racing on shorter circuits, I believe the Maney system works better, but for very fast tracks with long straights, individual megas will be faster. You could pick up some more top end horsepower by modifying the head for larger valves, and going to larger carbs, but that's another mod that could reduce low to mid-range power and response. My favorite suggestion for more power throughout the band, with no real disadvantage, would be more displacement. As long as you are already planning to use Jim Schmidt's long rod kit, you could get it for a 920 cc engine at about the same cost. You could probably send your cylinder back to Steve and have him bore and sleeve it to 81 mm. I've run several 920 engines, in both street and race bikes, and I really liked them.

Ken
Click to expand...

I will try to send you some pics
I try individual megas before,but you right, the Maney is better for street riding
Before the Fullauto head I was using a RH10 head with bigger inlet valves, but the Fullauto with stock sizes valves is better as the RH10 with bigger inlet
The idee to bore and sleeve the engine to 920 is maybe the solution, the only problem with 920 is that there is no oversize pistons
The long rods from JS will not be before next winter (I must save money)
 
Fast Eddie said:
yves norton seeley said:
Hi there,
First, I wish to tell you what I have done before on my Seeley 850:

Maney crankcases
Maney HC pistons
Maney cylinder
Maney 2 in 1 exhaust
Fullauto head
Dominator engineering crank
Commos timing chain tensioner
CNW 35 Keihin carbs
CNW intake manifold
CNW primary chain case
TTI 5 gearbox
Black diamond valves
Racing valves springs
Tri spark ignition
PW3 camshaft
Stock head gasket
Stock primary triplex chain

Now to the fact:
I use the Selley only on the road and once a year I do a sprint (1/8 mile)
At the last sprint I was the fasted on 30 feets, I broke the PW3 in two pieces, between first and second lobes
There was no other damage on the engine, so I put an new PW 3
This winter I open my engine and discover a crack in the part of the camshaft were the key is
So I decide to buy the Jim Smith JS2 camshaft with the lifters and valves springs
To day I did my first road test and here are the results:

No sensitive difference in power with the PW 3, but I feel that I can find more power with the JS 2, but how?
The engine give me the feeling to rev smoother, with les mecanical noise
The idee to change the PW3 for a JS 2 was not the power, but first off all the realibility, I do 10.000 Km a year with the Seeley and don't like to stay near the road
Next step will be the JS long rods and pistons

Yves Belgium
Click to expand...

Hi Yves,
That's a fine specification you have there!
Just for my own interest, could you describe the power delivery characteristics with the JS 2 cam?
And what compression are you running?
Click to expand...

The power delivery is the same as with the PW3, the real power start from 4.000 RPM, with no significant lost of power below 4.000
The feeling with the JS2 is that you swift from cheap oil to racing oil, evrything is smoother and less noisy
Compresion ratio must be 10 to 1, I never check, but I don't use base gasket with the maney cylinder and I use the original head gasket with Maney racing pistons, I have to addapt the squish band for clearance between piston and head.
The main goal to me is that even if I give the bike to Steve Wonder, he will know that he is riding a Norton and not a Kawayamhondazaki FZKXL
 
lcrken said:
Hi Yves,

that's a nice sounding package you've described. Could we persuade you to post some pictures?

If you are looking for more power, there isn't a lot left that you haven't already done. If you wanted more power at the top of the power band, you could switch to individual pipes and megaphones, but you'd lose some of the mid-range power that the Maney pipe gives. For street riding and racing on shorter circuits, I believe the Maney system works better, but for very fast tracks with long straights, individual megas will be faster. You could pick up some more top end horsepower by modifying the head for larger valves, and going to larger carbs, but that's another mod that could reduce low to mid-range power and response. My favorite suggestion for more power throughout the band, with no real disadvantage, would be more displacement. As long as you are already planning to use Jim Schmidt's long rod kit, you could get it for a 920 cc engine at about the same cost. You could probably send your cylinder back to Steve and have him bore and sleeve it to 81 mm. I've run several 920 engines, in both street and race bikes, and I really liked them.

Ken
Click to expand...

One of the things that stopped me going for the 920 option on my build (also using JS long rods and light pistons) is thus: with flat topped pistons, set to utilise the squish band, the CR is just too high for street use.
I know some say the squish band is not important on a Norton, and I have no Dyno proof to the contrary, but, especially when opened out to 81mm, there is a very nice squish area that, in my opinion, is sacrilege to ignore!
I thought about machining a shallow 'dish' into the piston crown to lower the CR and maintain the squish, but there just isn't adequate spare metal in the JS piston crowns (I have since learned that this is exactly what Maney does with his pistons, but they're only suitable for stock length rods).
So, being faced with a long rod-light piston 850 OR a short rod 'heavy piston' 920, after a lot of deliberation, I went for the 850 option.
It seems to me there is a market for slightly modified pistons suitable for long rod 920s. Not sure quite how big that market is though!
 
yves norton seeley said:
Fast Eddie said:
yves norton seeley said:
Hi there,
First, I wish to tell you what I have done before on my Seeley 850:

Maney crankcases
Maney HC pistons
Maney cylinder
Maney 2 in 1 exhaust
Fullauto head
Dominator engineering crank
Commos timing chain tensioner
CNW 35 Keihin carbs
CNW intake manifold
CNW primary chain case
TTI 5 gearbox
Black diamond valves
Racing valves springs
Tri spark ignition
PW3 camshaft
Stock head gasket
Stock primary triplex chain

Now to the fact:
I use the Selley only on the road and once a year I do a sprint (1/8 mile)
At the last sprint I was the fasted on 30 feets, I broke the PW3 in two pieces, between first and second lobes
There was no other damage on the engine, so I put an new PW 3
This winter I open my engine and discover a crack in the part of the camshaft were the key is
So I decide to buy the Jim Smith JS2 camshaft with the lifters and valves springs
To day I did my first road test and here are the results:

No sensitive difference in power with the PW 3, but I feel that I can find more power with the JS 2, but how?
The engine give me the feeling to rev smoother, with les mecanical noise
The idee to change the PW3 for a JS 2 was not the power, but first off all the realibility, I do 10.000 Km a year with the Seeley and don't like to stay near the road
Next step will be the JS long rods and pistons

Yves Belgium
Click to expand...

Hi Yves,
That's a fine specification you have there!
Just for my own interest, could you describe the power delivery characteristics with the JS 2 cam?
And what compression are you running?
Click to expand...

The power delivery is the same as with the PW3, the real power start from 4.000 RPM, with no significant lost of power below 4.000
The feeling with the JS2 is that you swift from cheap oil to racing oil, evrything is smoother and less noisy
Compresion ratio must be 10 to 1, I never check, but I don't use base gasket with the maney cylinder and I use the original head gasket with Maney racing pistons, I have to addapt the squish band for clearance between piston and head.
The main goal to me is that even if I give the bike to Steve Wonder, he will know that he is riding a Norton and not a Kawayamhondazaki FZKXL
Click to expand...
Thanks Yves, the reason for asking is that I also have a JS cam, although the motor is not built yet. I was very tempted by the stage 2 cam, but in the end I went for the stage 1. I'm getting very impatient to try it!!
 
Yves' Seeley:

Cams road test PW3 vs JS2
 
yves norton seeley said:
No sensitive difference in power with the PW 3, but I feel that I can find more power with the JS 2, but how?
The engine give me the feeling to rev smoother, with les mecanical noise
The idee to change the PW3 for a JS 2 was not the power, but first off all the realibility, I do 10.000 Km a year with the Seeley and don't like to stay near the road
Next step will be the JS long rods and pistons

Yves Belgium
Click to expand...

Yes the JS2 cam is very near to the PW3 but the JS2 has a little more overlap and duration with slightly less lift for a short time at the peak (less important than overall duration and it helps prevent valve float). Less valve float, less noise and longer lasting cam lobes with the lighter radiused lifters are the main advantages. You might see a couple more HP on the dyno but if so only because of the slight increase in overlap and duration.

the cam with more duration is the JS cam, the other is the PW3

Cams road test PW3 vs JS2
 
Thanks for posting the picture. That is a lovely bike.

Yves, I understand your problem with the 920. The last 920 engine I put together was for a racer friend of mine, and with .040" squish, cylinder head opened up for 81 mm bore, and flat top pistons, the CR ended up at 11.2. That would definitely be too high for street use on pump gas. I've managed lower CR on street 920s by opening up the combustion chamber in the head, but then the head is not so good for anything except a 920 engine.

Ken
 
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