Calling all 235xxx owners!

As many of you know I'm collecting and displaying info on Commandos. See: https://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoSurvey.aspx

There is a range of serial numbers (235xxx) generally thought to be 1973 bikes. They are a mix of 750s, special 750s, 850s but none of the info I've had until now caused a lot of confidence. There is one 850 MK2A I am confident of: 235700. Although Norton had no "Model Years", that bike certainly would be considered a 1974 based on being a MK2A, ANG Triple Trees, a Frame Number, and an Apr 1974 "Build Date".

Peter Henshaw and Mick Duckworth both think that 230935 was the last Commando 750, but I have many (with lower confidence) in the 235xxx range. I'm thinking that 230935 may have been the end of regular production and then they built more - often special - using up supplies but that does not explain 235700! One theory I have is that the number 235700 was used for something special and then rebuilt in a different frame by the factory. This is because the engine serial number is 235700 1. If you read the write-up, it's very likely that it left the factory that way as it's a fully matching numbers bike but the "1" is only on the engine case.

If you have a 235xxx bike I would really like and much info on it as possible. At usual, I do not store what you send me so there's no way for someone to get info on you from the web page or server. If concerned about email you can PM me here (email is easier to go back and forth if I have questions, but that data is not on the web server.

marshg@gregmarsh.com

marshg246 said:

There is a range of serial numbers (235xxx) generally thought to be 1973 bikes. They are a mix of 750s, special 750s, 850s but none of the info I've had until now caused a lot of confidence. There is one 850 MK2A I am confident of: 235700. Although Norton had no "Model Years", that bike certainly would be considered a 1974 based on being a MK2A, ANG Triple Trees, a Frame Number, and an Apr 1974 "Build Date".

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But only those up to approximately 235500 built during the early months of 1973 as mainly 750 Hi-Riders plus a few (drum-brake?, 30mm carb/RH1 head?) Roadsters.

850 Mk2As appear to be 235500+ so likely were built several months later and not part of the same '235' series as the 750 models.

Plus a few 235xxx short-stroke engines.

marshg246 said:

Peter Henshaw and Mick Duckworth both think that 230935 was the last Commando 750,

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Officially it is.

marshg246 said:

I'm thinking that 230935 may have been the end of regular production and then they built more - often special - using up supplies but that does not explain 235700!

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End of 750 production, yes, but if 235700 is an 850 Mk2A then what supplies are they supposed to have been using up as the '235' 850s seem to be normal 850 spec. and not special.

I took these photos at one of the Quail gatherings in Carmel, Ca. Like you I have been curious about these series for many years.

L.A.B. said:

End of 750 production, yes, but if 235700 is an 850 Mk2A then what supplies are they supposed to have been using up as the '235' 850s seem to be normal 850 spec. and not special.

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Just a thought. As I believe that the frame numbers and certification plates when on before being married to the power unit at least in some years. This bike has a frame number so that would imply that I'm wrong in my guess and that it's a frame made before they started that. Very loosely, that started somewhere between 306124 and 307542 which is in the area of July/Aug 1973. So that could mean that some or all of the 235xxx frames were actually made with 850s in mind but the ones before that time were used for 750s and specials. All guessing until I have more with more complete trustworthy info - hence this thread.

ILLF8ED said:

I took these photos at one of the Quail gatherings in Carmel, Ca. Like you I have been curious about these series for many years.

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I had that one, but you provided a lot more info than I had with the pictures - thanks!

marshg246 said:

As I believe that the frame numbers and certification plates when on before being married to the power unit at least in some years.

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If it has an F1xxxxx frame number then it could have been stamped before it left Italy (assuming it's an Italian frame?). Edit: Ok, "April '74" date stamp so the approximate build date.

marshg246 said:

So that could mean that some or all of the 235xxx frames were actually made with 850s in mind but the ones before that time were used for 750s and specials.

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There are no '235' frames. Only the plate is '235'.
'230' 750s had 850 frames (and ANG yokes).

L.A.B. said:

If it has an F1xxxxx frame number then it could have been stamped before it left Italy (assuming it's an Italian frame?), but what is the date stamp on the plate?




There are no '235' frames. Only the plate is '235'.
'230' 750s had 850 frames (and ANG yokes).

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The plate is 235700, 3/74, the Frame is 850F107841. We are saying the same thing except that the frame was very likely delivered to Norton after Jul/Aug 1973 since best I can tell there was no frame number before then. I've never heard you say this so firmly even when you helped me with Commando ID page: "'230' 750s had 850 frames (and ANG yokes)" can the same thing be said firmly about the "235" serial numbers?

Can you define "850" frames made in Jan/Fed 1973 before 850s were being made for sale with "235" numbers? Any guesses if any of the 230/235 frames were Renold's? Possibly those with no frame numbers?

marshg246 said:

"'230' 750s had 850 frames (and ANG yokes)" can the same thing be said firmly about the "235" serial numbers?

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No, because '235' 750s appear to have been built before the '230' 750s so '235' 750s had '750' frames as far as I'm aware.

L.A.B. said:

No, because '235' 750s appear to have been built before the '230' 750s so '235's had '750' frames as far as I'm aware.

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Wow! Never heard that. Maybe I should be asking about 230xxx! I only have two of those in the survey and neither has dates. I have lots of 235xxx.

marshg246 said:

Maybe I should be asking about 230xxx!

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230935 was the last (officially October '73) 750, therefore, logically '230' was the final 750 production series, however, according to Norton Service Release N3/39 (Replacement Centre stand kit) engine numbers 230536 - 230685 had either been built or were in the process of being built by March '73.
Some 230 series possibly built as early as December '72.

L.A.B. said:

230935 was the last (officially October '73) 750, therefore, logically '230' was the final 750 production series, however, according to Norton Service Release N3/39 (Replacement Centre stand kit) engine numbers 230536 - 230685 had either been built or were in the process of being built by March '73.
Some 230 series possibly built as early as December '72.

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Please have a look at 235565, 235677, and 235700 all 850s all with Apr 74 on the Certification label, all with frame numbers, and all with an extra engine serial number digit. Look especially at the headstock picture of 235565 as the frame number is strange. Any thoughts?

marshg246 said:

Any thoughts?

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No, not really except for the second 'F' with dots I've not seen before.
The '1' I think is normal for the 235 series 850s.

Greg,
24,600 750s total and 33,900 850s (including MkIII). It seems peculiar as 750s were in production for 6 years while 850s for 3 years.

ILLF8ED said:

Greg,
24,600 750s total and 33,900 850s (including MkIII). It seems peculiar as 750s were in production for 6 years while 850s for 3 years.

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I don't know how strong the sales were in the beginning, and 850s actually started being produced well before 750s ended. To make matters worse I'm trying to figure out a bike that appears to be an early Commando (ISOs, widow maker frame) with the frame number and engine number matching. No certification label, serial stamped in the frame headstock on the drive side. It has the rocker feeds of a Commando, a no-doubt Commando gearbox, and an engine serial way to early for a Commando. The owner is convinced that it left the factory that way and was made with left over parts.

Also, the 230xxx and 235xxx number ranges disagree with the common thinking of when 750s ended and when 850s started.

All that said, please find me better numbers with something to back them up! The whole point of the survey is to answer questions by the predominance of evidence since there are no complete records.

I have only three copied pages of factory records. One is 151xxx series the other two are 200xxx series. The 151xxx sheet has deliveries in the UK and US. The 200xxx is only going to UK dealers. I suspect the factory kept separate ledgers dependent on shipping location. It makes it all that much more difficult to get a total tally of Commando numbers.