C5 Ignition

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I've been able to contact the fella of Powerarc directly for insights and advice so you too may get a pow wow on Norton applications, which have reported issues with cam trigger mount instability so conical adapter made-sold to correct and also Andy the chain man more robust stable cam chain plus Jim's hydrualic cam tensioner should work a treat with programmable curve to match the combustion set up and fuel character. Most impressive tale that sold me was the detonating big cid Harley nothing else allowed much throttle on even with highest octane, ran even better on cheapest fastest burning lowest octane. Fred told me with the 3 sparks it don't need the self correcting idle stabilizing squiggle in lower ign. curve but can program in if ya like too.
 
hobot said:
I've been able to contact the fella of Powerarc directly for insights and advice
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Yes, you will also get a lecture on octane and its relationship to timing.

The multi spark stuff is not applicable to Nortons. That's as nice as I can say it. I had him remove the multispark and gave me a single spark program. Much more stable.
Success with the C5 will depend on your cam endplay. This is noted in the instruction. Excessive end play will cause the unit to loose sync (focus) and run all over the place.
From the instruction on the powerarc website circled in red "Cam end play should not exceed 0.020”
 
Camshaft radial play should not exceed a few thousandths either or synch problems will happen.

The name "power arc" is a bit misleading. It is actually one of the lower output ignitions I have tested unless it is programmed for single spark. Then it is just average. Jim
 
Ok will keep the warnings in mind and alter ign plans as required by trial and error. Glad its pleasing so far to some powerarc users hope i"m one of em but just more time&money routine if not.
 
comnoz said:
Camshaft radial play should not exceed a few thousandths either or synch problems will happen.

The name "power arc" is a bit misleading. It is actually one of the lower output ignitions I have tested unless it is programmed for single spark. Then it is just average. Jim
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Jim,

So from your comments you weren't impressed with the Power Arc? Guess I'm back to the Pazon.

Dennis
 
dennisgb said:
cyclegeezer said:
dennisgb said:
Anyone have one of these on a Commando?

Looks interesting:

http://www.c5ignitions.com/
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I have one purchased from Old Britts, sold under the PowerArc brand. I'm very happy with it.
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Yes I contacted the C5 Guy in Wisconsin and he sent me to Old Brits. How long have you had it on the bike?
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I installed it in March of 2012. It's been totally reliable since then.
 
Ugh comnoz, serious issues you reveal for Peel's rather hi compression ignition needs. Wonder if the coil pack was up to snuff on the test. Would like ya to test my CD4 verison and coil pack and pow pow with Powerarc and other options for multiple ign curves with big changes in octane needs.
 
hobot said:
Ugh comnoz, serious issues you reveal for Peel's rather hi compression ignition needs. Wonder if the coil pack was up to snuff on the test. Would like ya to test my CD4 verison and coil pack and pow pow with Powerarc and other options for multiple ign curves with big changes in octane needs.
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I would like to do more testing on another power arc. Since I did the last testing my ignition analyzer has died and I am looking for a replacement. I have my Snap-on dealer searching. [anyone have a used Snap-on Counselor 2 they want to get rid of?] It is possible that the two units I tested a year ago were not a good representation of the bunch.

I will have to say that in my experience I have not found it possible to provide three strong sparks and run it from a Norton alternator. To make a powerful multi-spark ignition requires either a resonant tank circuit such as the Delfi system or a CDI system such as a MSD multispark which charges the coil once for each discharge. Either of these systems is going to draw more currant than is available with a Norton charging system.

I do run a multispark sytem on my bike. It produces high frequency sparks over about 40 degrees of crank rotation. It does not seem to affect the power but it does make easier starting and a more stable idle. It is powerful enough to run surface gap plugs easily. It also pulls around 10 amps at idle.

The power- arc makes three sparks by dividing a single coil charge into three discharges which means that all three discharges added together will only have the total energy of a single charge- single spark ignition. Jim
 
Indeed weak spark is serious issue to Peel's potential effective 17 CR, though only might need the three hits at lower rpm piston compression dynamics, so still up in air when PA kicks into single dual wasted spark mode. I'm not read to install Peel CD4 unit and have the cone adapter stabilizer fitting, so offer it to test and make a more informed decision that can make or break Peel's purpose. Btw I'm long familiar with surface discharge plugs and is what allowed my P!! dragster to be civilized in public with a dunce mechanic to solve plug fouling richness of competition tune.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Snap-On-Counsel ... e5&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SNAP-ON-COUNSEL ... ac&vxp=mtr

It may turn out only way to get what I want is with Comstock's ign and fuel injection combo, which about for sure would push Peel beyond my expectations. If able to configure for methanol too it'd be a bargain in the long run.
 
comnoz said:
I will have to say that in my experience I have not found it possible to provide three strong sparks and run it from a Norton alternator. To make a powerful multi-spark ignition requires either a resonant tank circuit such as the Delfi system or a CDI system such as a MSD multispark which charges the coil once for each discharge. Either of these systems is going to draw more currant than is available with a Norton charging system.
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Jim,

Would your opinion be the same if the charging system was upgraded to 3 Phase 200 Watt alternator? I see where you have been working with the MSD system is that a better option?

Dennis
 
I do not think being able to feed a good 12 to 14v to the coil is the issue. The coil being able to recharge so fast to produce three hot sparks per stroke in a wasted spark configuration is.

The C2 will work either with a non wasted spark, dual fire coil or 2 coils, or in a wasted spark setup, single fire dual output coil.

The question is whether the C2 in the non wasted park setup will offer a stronger multi spark. I beleive my C1 and C2 work better because I had them programmed for single spark.

I have mentioned before that my cam had too much endplay which cause me to pull my hair out for a while trying to figure what was going on. I reverted to the SureFire and have since applied a Hunt Mag. The C1 and C2 are sold now and the Surefire is safely stored away.

Bottom line is either adapt a CDI setup which the multispark was intended for, or send the unit back to have the multi spark program removed and add the single spark program.

We'll see if Comnoz concurs. Jim, feel free to adjust this to the truth as you see it, you know, that whole "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." thing.
 
dennisgb said:
comnoz said:
I will have to say that in my experience I have not found it possible to provide three strong sparks and run it from a Norton alternator. To make a powerful multi-spark ignition requires either a resonant tank circuit such as the Delfi system or a CDI system such as a MSD multispark which charges the coil once for each discharge. Either of these systems is going to draw more currant than is available with a Norton charging system.
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Jim,

Would your opinion be the same if the charging system was upgraded to 3 Phase 200 Watt alternator? I see where you have been working with the MSD system is that a better option?

Dennis
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No, even the three phase alternator would not do a good job of powering a high powered multispark unit, at least not if you wanted a headlight at the same time.
The MSD system I have been working with is not a multi-spark unit. It is just one good strong spark and likely will not perform any different than any decent digital ignition.
The part I like about the MSD unit is it's legendary dependability plus it's ability to do 2 way communication with a laptop -so you can monitor it's operation and see it's present advance and settings. Jim
 
If I can get the drive to work as hoped Peel will have 600 watt 3 wire voltage sensing alternator to power what ever. Helps to know others have spent on dead ends too. The wasted spark that jumps from hook to center is said to deliver ~15% less spark energy than the normal direction spark.
 
hobot said:
If I can get the drive to work as hoped Peel will have 600 watt 3 wire voltage sensing alternator to power what ever. Helps to know others have spent on dead ends too. The wasted spark that jumps from hook to center is said to deliver ~15% less spark energy than the normal direction spark.
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Steve,
If you have enough alternator just pick up a MSD6 digital 4 cylinder ignition box and trigger it from a boyer or a trispark. You will be amazed. Jim
 
comnoz said:
The part I like about the MSD unit is it's legendary dependability plus it's ability to do 2 way communication with a laptop -so you can monitor it's operation and see it's present advance and settings. Jim
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Is this something you can share with us or is this going to be a commercial product? I'm interested.
 
dennisgb said:
comnoz said:
The part I like about the MSD unit is it's legendary dependability plus it's ability to do 2 way communication with a laptop -so you can monitor it's operation and see it's present advance and settings. Jim
Click to expand...

Is this something you can share with us or is this going to be a commercial product? I'm interested.
Click to expand...

What I am doing is buying a MSD 4217 ignition control module and a matching twin tower coil.

I have designed a crank trigger using a custom VR sensor, a bracket to hold it and a reluctor wheel. It fits outside the alternator rotor on pre-MK3 engines. I do not yet have a design for a MK3.

I have worked out a ignition curve that works pretty well for a Norton. I have a few of these built and installed on bikes that are "close to home" for testing. So far the results are good but the mileages accumulated so far are pretty low.

I plan on making the "kit" available in the near future. It will be pre-programmed with two ignition curves, one for high compression motors and one for low compression 850s. It comes with software to install on a PC so it can be re-programmed easily.

Since it says MSD on it -it is not cheap. Jim
 
Ugh disheartening size of the MSD brain box. I guess best to put battery on skid-chin plate and the brains in my seat : (
Prolly weighs 5 lb to boot. I'm thinking of getting a tablet 'puter to handle the data steams and digital diddles and monitor gamma rays on journeys. What happens to the sparks when the wires clipped to configure to 4 cylinder mode, makes it a dual wasted spark system? Above 13 CR it says reduce gap to .035-.045". Ugh definitely see the light on sparking though TDC mixture density that's honey viscus. Crap now gotta learn about crank triggers too. I just want to ride quickly so this technical stuff is more delay to get through.

data details here
http://www.msdignition.com/uploadedFile ... 1/6425.pdf
 
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