Brakes, old or new

A

Alan L

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Apr 13, 2021
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Hi all,
I am surprised that my Commando’s brakes (74 mk2) weren’t a bit better out of the factory, not that I’m suggesting that they were substantially worse than their competition. As others would know, the front disc requires the ‘grip of a Scotsman on a 5 quid note’ to get any meaningful retardation. This was fine when I was 20 but with significant wrist joint damage, at 65 it is a battle. The rear brake is surprisingly weak with a long travel, disappointing considering that not that much is required of it. I have the sleeved down master cylinder on the front disc which greatly improves the bike’s brakes. I wonder why Norton chose the ratio they did.
But that is not the subject of this post. What really surprises me is a prevailing attitude that somehow because of changed traffic conditions over the last 60 years that brakes that were once adequate are now inadequate. I would have thought that an emergency stop then was just as demanding as an emergency stop today. Whether it was a Vauxhall Velox unexpectedly pulling out of a side street in Swinging Sixties London or a brand new Tesla in present day Sydney, the results of the encounter are about the same. A kangaroo is just as solid today as it was then, should you meet by accident. I guess our expectations have just changed.
For the riding I do, unexpected wildlife is my nemesis making riding at dusk or night a game of roulette. I don’t need brakes with a great ability to avoid fade from continuous application as I rarely use them heavily or repeatedly. I do require a brake that works instantly from cold and delivers a massive stop with a minimum of fuss or anticipation. It doesn’t seem that tricky.
Alan
 
Hi Alan, when I brought my 74 Commando new the front brake worked great but I was also a light weight back then I had no troubles locking the front brake at all but the more use they had the worst they got, went through a few rebuilds with the MC over the early years, then the rubber brake hose expanded inside the hose and blocked it, got a SS hose made up for it and made a difference but still the front brake was not good enough for these days on the road.
I brought a sleeve down kit but I didn't like that and never installed it but about 15 years ago after a major rebuild of my motor replacing the crank cases the first ride after a car turned in front of me and the front brake did a bad thing and I laid the bike down, I didn't think much about it but a few weeks later had a slow speed accident to avoid hitting a car at an intersection and the front brake grabbed hard and threw me over the handle bars, fractured left elbow and broken left thumb so while recovering I upgraded my front brake system with a full Grimica set up from RGM while recovering, best $500 I ever spent on my front brake and too this day still one finger operation if I want too and great braking, new Grimica MC, brake line, caliper and 12" semi floating disc and now have front brake as good as my 2013 Thruxton at the time.
As for the rear brake which I only use to slow down the back wheel as the front brake does all the major work, but the down fall of the Commando rear brake is that cable, it has too much stretch and give in my way of thinking, if only the factory fitted a rod from the peddle to the brake arm would have been a better design like the older Norton's.
I have learned a long time ago to slow down without using my brakes heavy and while out riding I hardly use them except for coming to a full stop or in traffic when needed, I do this on all my bikes as well when driving my cars, but when I do need to use them I know I have done the right thing in upgrading my front brakes on my old Norton, my safety is more important than to relying on out dated stock brakes as one day they will let you down as mind did and I could have come out worst than I did.

Ashley
 
I agree. My 74 Roadster brakes were never much good. Back in the day I didn't have the money or options available to improve things.

Now I run a CNW front brake which is pretty expensive.

For a more economical solution I'd go with the Andover master cylinder. I would not be comfortable with the resleeve option. Some work but some have issues.

For the rear I found the RGM high friction shoes to be very good, although you may need to arc them to get them to fit properly.

One last thing. Modern disc pads are also a definite improvement. They do need to be bedded in properly and don't repeat the stupid thing I did. I had to store the bike a couple of years while moving so sprayed antirust coating everywhere. Including on the front disc and basically ruined the pads. Never worked properly since. 😤😤
 
You can get as much brake as your wallet will support.
Only you know what you need and what you can afford.
If you are asking where the sweet spot is, there is no consensus.

You have already tried the sleeved master.
A few next steps, in no particular order:
www.rgmnorton.co.uk

UPRATE FRONT BRAKE DISC KIT INC. LEVER & HOSE

050086 RGM NORTON UPRATE FRONT BRAKE KIT
www.rgmnorton.co.uk
andover-norton.co.uk

Andover Norton Parts Drawings - Genuine Andover Norton Factory Parts - Commando Parts

Andover Norton Parts are the only Norton spare parts in the market manufactured to original drawings, within the factory-approved tolerances, from the correct materials, and with the correct finish.
andover-norton.co.uk
 
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ashman said:
Hi Alan, when I brought my 74 Commando new the front brake worked great but I was also a light weight back then I had no troubles locking the front brake at all but the more use they had the worst they got, went through a few rebuilds with the MC over the early years, then the rubber brake hose expanded inside the hose and blocked it, got a SS hose made up for it and made a difference but still the front brake was not good enough for these days on the road.
I brought a sleeve down kit but I didn't like that and never installed it but about 15 years ago after a major rebuild of my motor replacing the crank cases the first ride after a car turned in front of me and the front brake did a bad thing and I laid the bike down, I didn't think much about it but a few weeks later had a slow speed accident to avoid hitting a car at an intersection and the front brake grabbed hard and threw me over the handle bars, fractured left elbow and broken left thumb so while recovering I upgraded my front brake system with a full Grimica set up from RGM while recovering, best $500 I ever spent on my front brake and too this day still one finger operation if I want too and great braking, new Grimica MC, brake line, caliper and 12" semi floating disc and now have front brake as good as my 2013 Thruxton at the time.
As for the rear brake which I only use to slow down the back wheel as the front brake does all the major work, but the down fall of the Commando rear brake is that cable, it has too much stretch and give in my way of thinking, if only the factory fitted a rod from the peddle to the brake arm would have been a better design like the older Norton's.
I have learned a long time ago to slow down without using my brakes heavy and while out riding I hardly use them except for coming to a full stop or in traffic when needed, I do this on all my bikes as well when driving my cars, but when I do need to use them I know I have done the right thing in upgrading my front brakes on my old Norton, my safety is more important than to relying on out dated stock brakes as one day they will let you down as mind did and I could have come out worst than I did.

Ashley
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Re: the sleeve down kit. I can’t remember which one I ordered but suspect it was an RGM. It’s installation was straight forward and exactly as described in the instructions. I think I had to purchase a drill bit I didn’t have to bore the old cylinder.
It worked straight off and brings the front brake up to a level that I regard as acceptable if not great.
I see no reason not to trust the modified master cylinder.
 
I must have the RGM kit in the link above. It looks identical. My bike came to me with it already on, so can't compare to the original. It is very, very much better than the stock Honda disk set up on my CB750K6 of the same era. Almost modern performance. It was wooden when I first got the bike, but new pads from RGM transformed it. Easy to flush the fluid without air locks.
 
"What really surprises me is a prevailing attitude that somehow because of changed traffic conditions over the last 60 years that brakes that were once adequate are now inadequate."

There is so much more traffic now and many drivers are on their cell phones instead of "driving" so, IMO, the need for better-than-Norton OEM brakes is simply a function of that - more "exposure" and less time to react. Why "less time to react?" Because drivers on their cellphones often make abrupt maneuvers with no apparent need or warning. Back in the day, my first "decent sized" motorcycle was a Honda CL350 with drum brakes. Never had any issue with the brakes or any thoughts that they were inadequate. But IMO, they would be suicidal today IF the bike was used for general riding in normal traffic whereas if only out on a country road with light traffic the OEM brakes are adequate. But in my case, to get to a fun riding area - twisty country roads - it first requires an 80 mile slog on congested town roads then congested Interstate to get to that area. So good brakes are essential for 80 miles, after that the OEMs would be OK! :)

As I have posted previously, I had two sleeved master cylinders fail with no warning on my Commando and would NEVER put another one on a vehicle. I installed a Brembo MC from CNW, a set of SS brake lines and some Ferodo platinum pads and my Commando's front brake and OEM size tires feels/stops pretty much like a modern bike. CNW sells an adapter that allows use of the OEM switchgear with the Brembo MC.
 
MexicoMike said:
"What really surprises me is a prevailing attitude that somehow because of changed traffic conditions over the last 60 years that brakes that were once adequate are now inadequate."

There is so much more traffic now and many drivers are on their cell phones instead of "driving" so, IMO, the need for better-than-Norton OEM brakes is simply a function of that - more "exposure" and less time to react. Why "less time to react?" Because drivers on their cellphones often make abrupt maneuvers with no apparent need or warning. Back in the day, my first "decent sized" motorcycle was a Honda CL350 with drum brakes. Never had any issue with the brakes or any thoughts that they were inadequate. But IMO, they would be suicidal today IF the bike was used for general riding in normal traffic whereas if only out on a country road with light traffic the OEM brakes are adequate. But in my case, to get to a fun riding area - twisty country roads - it first requires an 80 mile slog on congested town roads then congested Interstate to get to that area. So good brakes are essential for 80 miles, after that the OEMs would be OK! :)

As I have posted previously, I had two sleeved master cylinders fail with no warning on my Commando and would NEVER put another one on a vehicle. I installed a Brembo MC from CNW, a set of SS brake lines and some Ferodo platinum pads and my Commando's front brake and OEM size tires feels/stops pretty much like a modern bike. CNW sells an adapter that allows use of the OEM switchgear with the Brembo MC.
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Absolutely!

There is MUCH more traffic. And drivers are WAY more distracted.

Traffic is also much faster on average, and the braking performance and ability of modern cars is FAR superior, they have far superior suspension, tyres and brakes than ever before AND on top of that, they have ABS, so people now know that they don’t need to think about their braking, they can just stamp on the pedal and let the computer take care of everything.

So yes. Upgrading the brakes on old bikes has a lot of merit IMO…
 
MexicoMike said:
"What really surprises me is a prevailing attitude that somehow because of changed traffic conditions over the last 60 years that brakes that were once adequate are now inadequate."

There is so much more traffic now and many drivers are on their cell phones instead of "driving" so, IMO, the need for better-than-Norton OEM brakes is simply a function of that - more "exposure" and less time to react. Why "less time to react?" Because drivers on their cellphones often make abrupt maneuvers with no apparent need or warning. Back in the day, my first "decent sized" motorcycle was a Honda CL350 with drum brakes. Never had any issue with the brakes or any thoughts that they were inadequate. But IMO, they would be suicidal today IF the bike was used for general riding in normal traffic whereas if only out on a country road with light traffic the OEM brakes are adequate. But in my case, to get to a fun riding area - twisty country roads - it first requires an 80 mile slog on congested town roads then congested Interstate to get to that area. So good brakes are essential for 80 miles, after that the OEMs would be OK! :)

As I have posted previously, I had two sleeved master cylinders fail with no warning on my Commando and would NEVER put another one on a vehicle. I installed a Brembo MC from CNW, a set of SS brake lines and some Ferodo platinum pads and my Commando's front brake and OEM size tires feels/stops pretty much like a modern bike. CNW sells an adapter that allows use of the OEM switchgear with the Brembo MC.
Click to expand...
Your failed, resleeved M/C's were done by who? or whos resleeve kit was used? I've fitted loads of the RGM kits and never had a failure. The RGM kits bronze sleeve is screwed into the M/C, not just held in by loctite or similar, and the adjustable piston pusher gives them the facility to 'tune' the lever feel.
 
It really depends on where you live and ride. The AN master makes a big difference and if you worry about
failures then this route is not that expensive and safe. But if you want serious level brakes then go to the CNW
rig. However the truth is you want ABS and that is a whole 'nuther story. It is amazing how fast we got used to just planting the brake pedal on a car.
 
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My recent modification:

Brakes, old or new
 
ashman said:
As for the rear brake which I only use to slow down the back wheel as the front brake does all the major work, but the down fall of the Commando rear brake is that cable, it has too much stretch and give in my way of thinking, if only the factory fitted a rod from the peddle to the brake arm would have been a better design like the older Norton's.


Ashley
Click to expand...
Norton used a cable because with a rod the force applied to the lever on the brake back plate would be reacted through the isolastic rubbers, (in addition to the breaking force at the tyre), instead of directly to the frame with the cable. Whether or not that was justified I do not know.
 
Fast Eddie said:
My recent modification:

View attachment 114101
Click to expand...
Lovely stuff there Nigel, but is the 2nd disc actually necessary? I remember Ralph had a twin disk on his Seely initially, but went back to a single disc with every good results.
I don't run as hard as you, but even at Spa, I found a single RGM floating disc, AP caliper and a 13mm Brembo master cylinder gave me very good stopping power. Mind you, I'm also using a homemade caliper adapter plate as well :cool:
 
SteveBorland said:
Lovely stuff there Nigel, but is the 2nd disc actually necessary? I remember Ralph had a twin disk on his Seely initially, but went back to a single disc with every good results.
I don't run as hard as you, but even at Spa, I found a single RGM floating disc, AP caliper and a 13mm Brembo master cylinder gave me very good stopping power. Mind you, I'm also using a homemade caliper adapter plate as well :cool:
Click to expand...
Good question Steve.

I was always a big single disc advocate too. And would still say there’s nowt wrong with that.

What changed my mind somewhat though was the silly OTT set up I fitted to my Seeley (see pic). Key to this was Brembo radial master cylinder.

What this made me realise (even more than I already thought) was that feel is at least as important as power. And, the more feel you have, the more power you can use. The brakes on the Seeley are just like modern sports bikes brakes.

So, I tried to do similar on the Commando but fitted AP callipers as I couldn’t see a neat way of fitting Brembos with the Norvil type sliders.

I was also suffering a bit with my single disc pulling to the right, which does not happen with twin discs.

The Seeley’s brakes:

IMG_2977.jpeg
 
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hybridracer said:
Norton used a cable because with a rod the force applied to the lever on the brake back plate would be reacted through the isolastic rubbers, (in addition to the breaking force at the tyre), instead of directly to the frame with the cable. Whether or not that was justified I do not know.
Click to expand...
Also unless you had a fulcrum point on the centre of the swinging arm spindle
You'd suffer with the ever changing centre's that the suspension movement creates
 
There has been no mention of the Madass brake. It is relatively inexpensive and quite light in weight.
It is a large single disc operated by a 6 piston Nissan MC.
On a high speed mountain run on the Norton I could not overheat the brake.
To drop 20 or 30 mph quickly for a corner just takes light pressure from 2 fingers . The pressure required for hard braking never seems to change, no matter how close the corners are (heat)
The same run with the stock brakes caused the front brake to overheat and fail completely.

Glen
Brakes, old or new
 
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Fast Eddie said:
Good question Steve.

I was always a big single disc advocate too. And would still say there’s nowt wrong with that.

What changed my mind somewhat though was the silly OTT set up I fitted to my Seeley (see pic). Key to this was Brembo radial master cylinder.

What this made me realise (even more than I already thought) was that feel is at least important power. And, the more feel you have the more power you can use. The brakes on the Seeley are just like modern sports bikes brakes.

So, I tried to do similar on the Commando but fitted AP callipers as I couldn’t see a neat way of fitted Brembos with the Norvil type sliders.

I was also suffering a bit with my single disc pulling to the right, which does not happen with twin discs.

The Seeley’s brakes:

View attachment 114104
Click to expand...
Damn it Nigel, that's yet another case of serious kit envy you have given me!!! :)
 
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