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- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 18,978
Braking physics vs rest of the world.
I did not throw the 1st punch here Dances, you did and I've not defended my self or Peel till now in one post, so see if you can take it like Peel & me can.
Peel and me can put the whole mass of us on one patch, at will, rear or front and beyond that can first smash down that one patch to twice the size and quadruple the grip to take torque or brake spike loads more effectively than any thing else fielded so far. I'm seriously considering a seat belt or velcro to brake better on Peel, that how hard she can pull down before over doing it to lock up. I also like my factory Trixie with just restrictor removed as more secure to brake than my SV650 or Ninja dual rotor on hot race tires and racer like suspension mods, the poor things. Pay attention or leave me be, I don't say I like to lock up to stop just am almost comfortable to now. The very best off road riding schools teach best stops on THE Gravel is locking last few feet. Duh.
========================================
postby Dances with Shrapnel » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:01 pm
hobot wrote:Just because brake set up is easy to lock up don't mean much for real pull down ability, just smoke and noise and fooled pilot.
Well that is the point and that is where we see things very differently.
If you locked it up you are sliding (skidding) and lost control since the front wheel has stopped turning whereas if weight were a little higher or further forward you could pull a few more notches on the brake lever for even more stopping power while maintaining control since the front wheel is still turning.
Works for me; works for the fast riders.
No fooling the laws of physics.
=========================================================
John Dances with shrapnel, now ya gone revealed your lack of experience
in both principles of motion and how it applies to slowing or stopping, or Steering on motorcycles. I intend to go head to head with the best there is in pilots and cycles with Ms Peel - throwing down the gauntlet to put up or shut up on both servere acelleration to speed then pull down stopped. I have been hit by lightening on the wonders of the Commando with some simple mods and tested in life death levels against both myself on moderns as well as against experts both the younger squid types and the seasoned vacationing racer types. I can not be mislead and survive to look forward to more and more of it.
I stopped teasing sports riders after a couple of seasons on Peel, as not even neck and neck, so I would tease hot cars and pickups in the twisties to get the scare of adrenaline trembles fix. I want to pick on 4wd 1000 hp ralley cars and race Karts not corner cripples that flip on nose slowing for a turn, pashaw!
I don't think F1 cars will have speed enough to generate down force turns at tracks like Barbers so they are in my sights there too. But they use phase 5 steering so may get my butt kicked of course but will give em a run for it, wouldn't you?
I routinely live-ride in*out of best traction states for over a decade now. Best traction to loading is gotten with slight sliding-grinding-scuffing, not locked up or spin smoking. But to learn limits of me on Peel and others I had to learn the smoking or dust throwing locked up states too.
I CAN NOT STOP ON Ms PEEL
using all of her grip w/o being thrown over the bars when keeping front in best squealing-howling states 100+ mph down to last motion. Ain't no sports bike that can match her pull down G's as they tip over nose so have to back off. Best braking is gotten with rear just lifted out of any traction but still mostly leveled bike. Oh how it hurts my toes nails to teeth roots to panic stop.
Working up to best stops on Peel took many trials of various levels of feathering lever gripping, mostly done down hill, on and off pavement. After I found the best slowing yet still stay on bike - still not able to keep my butt solid in saddle no matter how I prepped ahead to prevent my body flinging over bars, knees gripped tight to big tank, all the way back in seat, arms locked and body lowered in line of G's, Peel could still stop harder than I could hold on to.
*After* this I began trying to stoppie her but found Cdo's CoG only allowed rear to lift an inch or so, which is very hard to keep from swapping ends. On other bikes like the stunters use or a floppy un-tamed isolastic Cdo, its essentially impossible d/t chassis twist up and rebound supported on forks only. Impressive as hell to see racers lifting rear going into turns but I know that's low slowing G's compared to braking full upright inline before a turn. Its handy to trip out front to snatch a sharper turn, if going fastest enough it don't hit ground before re-grip, but that's still slowing up - not harsher going around. So its more handy to slow inline till rear out of traction then release front and trip out rear by power for accelerating a snatch into sharper decreasing radius glee.
Show me one video of stunters riding a locked front tire and not falling down, please, pretty please with sugar on top. So in my frustration to stoppie Peel i daily practiced on entering our village square, to cause freaked out on lookers to SHOUT out to me as I glided past parked bikes, YOUR LOCKED UP, duh, not by accidental un-awareness of it. At least once per ride I test my mettle and bike by a scary lock up to refresh reflexes and see if I'm up to really pressing it that day. If I can't bring myself to almost crash braking then I know I'm too timid-weak=sick-old that day so better be extra aware not to go fast.
But inline braking only slows so slowly no matter the cycle. My ole P!! drum brake dragster taught me the best way to stop is like a water or snow skier, completely sideways thrown down low so both tire edges in full grip til the end.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2VCjy33IAs[/video]
Real old school choppers I've ridden get away w/o a front brake d/t most the mass on rear and front lifted to keep it that way. Racers are set up opposite because they can't take much power to do turns so must put more faith in front traction. Forward weight bias helps them be sprinter wonders but if given much power in turns it just lifts the front out of traction to steer or rear is so unloaded innately it just spins out.
Peels rear air muscle tuck down valves will be mounted on rear brake lever so I can hit rear brake 1st and drop rear by one foot action an instant later use L hand to release front fork to full extension as I also nail front brake to howl and hand on till rear lifts out of traction and then back off front some not to fly right off. Ever tried to drag a big dog into a vet clinic with its butt on the ground and front legs out stiff, well that's how my old hound dog Peel should act.
I rarely ride to need brakes, they only work if going fairly slow on good surfaces. My ingrained first reaction is beserk throttle and steering to save surprise hazards in my face. I get red hot iron burn in hand, like a witch test, when I grab brake in panic, which causes me to let it go reflexly so will never again crash by too much brake right into what I most wanted not to hit. Ms Peel is able to go beyond phase 2 counter steering sluggish racer rates, so can use brake stabs to change aim and lean angles or save skip outs on bug guts, leaf litter or diesel spills they soak up with sand and grit thrown on it in apexes.
You racers if front slips out to low side trail braking might save it by release of front brake at same time as hard kick down jab to lock rear an instant to induce a hi side back upright in line, aimed off track edge now but still time to really brake hard enough upright on front only till able to swing back on course. Hard to find video or instruction on this so guess just have to take hobot word for it huh. Had to do this on my modern cripple more than my more secure Peel, so know its workable across the scope of cycles. I now know to never ever trail brake but emergency forced hazard crisis only.
I'm an open blank book on all your mechanical insights but you think you're going teach hobot about brakes or geometry or inertia or ballistics of cycles, LOL till crying out loud! Don't know what ya's missing out on do ya, I do and that is just too sad to me. Can't even discuss but two phases out of the 5- Five on handling energy in turns, can't see how extra height and weight above Cog decreases slowing and can only think of brakes for slowing down and likely thinks its best to be leaning while braking and no mention of throwing bike side ways on purpose to slow fastest with both brakes locked. Likely don't understand what a phase change of matter and energy means, ice to water to steam then plasma and then into radiant energy only. 1 to 5 with distinct changes of their physics in each step, nay leap up the scale.
One should never let a bike get ahead of them, 2 ways is go, real slow or so fast you out race the crashes. Brakes are the most important control to me to master and need them the least of all controls, until so fast all control inputs reverse so brake and throttle switch functions. Power up to slow down, release to snap forward, add drag to loose friction to change angle and aim into better grip.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4gmVNxOIWw[/video]
If I had ABS brakes on THE Gravel I'd not be able to make it.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d6iu-1WFxw[/video]
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3MfLcJLaCs[/video]
To go deeper we'd enter the air time antics side ways, launches and set ups and landings and reboundings, with wind gusts and ground effects, so is a whole 'nother realm I don't read much about but is main attraction I have for next Ms Peel.
Bring on your mis-guided physics and cycle handling engineering dead ends, that are too freaking dangerous and boring low G['s forces for me and Peel to get off on.
I did not throw the 1st punch here Dances, you did and I've not defended my self or Peel till now in one post, so see if you can take it like Peel & me can.
Peel and me can put the whole mass of us on one patch, at will, rear or front and beyond that can first smash down that one patch to twice the size and quadruple the grip to take torque or brake spike loads more effectively than any thing else fielded so far. I'm seriously considering a seat belt or velcro to brake better on Peel, that how hard she can pull down before over doing it to lock up. I also like my factory Trixie with just restrictor removed as more secure to brake than my SV650 or Ninja dual rotor on hot race tires and racer like suspension mods, the poor things. Pay attention or leave me be, I don't say I like to lock up to stop just am almost comfortable to now. The very best off road riding schools teach best stops on THE Gravel is locking last few feet. Duh.
========================================
postby Dances with Shrapnel » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:01 pm
hobot wrote:Just because brake set up is easy to lock up don't mean much for real pull down ability, just smoke and noise and fooled pilot.
Well that is the point and that is where we see things very differently.
If you locked it up you are sliding (skidding) and lost control since the front wheel has stopped turning whereas if weight were a little higher or further forward you could pull a few more notches on the brake lever for even more stopping power while maintaining control since the front wheel is still turning.
Works for me; works for the fast riders.
No fooling the laws of physics.
=========================================================
John Dances with shrapnel, now ya gone revealed your lack of experience
in both principles of motion and how it applies to slowing or stopping, or Steering on motorcycles. I intend to go head to head with the best there is in pilots and cycles with Ms Peel - throwing down the gauntlet to put up or shut up on both servere acelleration to speed then pull down stopped. I have been hit by lightening on the wonders of the Commando with some simple mods and tested in life death levels against both myself on moderns as well as against experts both the younger squid types and the seasoned vacationing racer types. I can not be mislead and survive to look forward to more and more of it.
I stopped teasing sports riders after a couple of seasons on Peel, as not even neck and neck, so I would tease hot cars and pickups in the twisties to get the scare of adrenaline trembles fix. I want to pick on 4wd 1000 hp ralley cars and race Karts not corner cripples that flip on nose slowing for a turn, pashaw!
I don't think F1 cars will have speed enough to generate down force turns at tracks like Barbers so they are in my sights there too. But they use phase 5 steering so may get my butt kicked of course but will give em a run for it, wouldn't you?
I routinely live-ride in*out of best traction states for over a decade now. Best traction to loading is gotten with slight sliding-grinding-scuffing, not locked up or spin smoking. But to learn limits of me on Peel and others I had to learn the smoking or dust throwing locked up states too.
I CAN NOT STOP ON Ms PEEL
using all of her grip w/o being thrown over the bars when keeping front in best squealing-howling states 100+ mph down to last motion. Ain't no sports bike that can match her pull down G's as they tip over nose so have to back off. Best braking is gotten with rear just lifted out of any traction but still mostly leveled bike. Oh how it hurts my toes nails to teeth roots to panic stop.
Working up to best stops on Peel took many trials of various levels of feathering lever gripping, mostly done down hill, on and off pavement. After I found the best slowing yet still stay on bike - still not able to keep my butt solid in saddle no matter how I prepped ahead to prevent my body flinging over bars, knees gripped tight to big tank, all the way back in seat, arms locked and body lowered in line of G's, Peel could still stop harder than I could hold on to.
*After* this I began trying to stoppie her but found Cdo's CoG only allowed rear to lift an inch or so, which is very hard to keep from swapping ends. On other bikes like the stunters use or a floppy un-tamed isolastic Cdo, its essentially impossible d/t chassis twist up and rebound supported on forks only. Impressive as hell to see racers lifting rear going into turns but I know that's low slowing G's compared to braking full upright inline before a turn. Its handy to trip out front to snatch a sharper turn, if going fastest enough it don't hit ground before re-grip, but that's still slowing up - not harsher going around. So its more handy to slow inline till rear out of traction then release front and trip out rear by power for accelerating a snatch into sharper decreasing radius glee.
Show me one video of stunters riding a locked front tire and not falling down, please, pretty please with sugar on top. So in my frustration to stoppie Peel i daily practiced on entering our village square, to cause freaked out on lookers to SHOUT out to me as I glided past parked bikes, YOUR LOCKED UP, duh, not by accidental un-awareness of it. At least once per ride I test my mettle and bike by a scary lock up to refresh reflexes and see if I'm up to really pressing it that day. If I can't bring myself to almost crash braking then I know I'm too timid-weak=sick-old that day so better be extra aware not to go fast.
But inline braking only slows so slowly no matter the cycle. My ole P!! drum brake dragster taught me the best way to stop is like a water or snow skier, completely sideways thrown down low so both tire edges in full grip til the end.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2VCjy33IAs[/video]
Real old school choppers I've ridden get away w/o a front brake d/t most the mass on rear and front lifted to keep it that way. Racers are set up opposite because they can't take much power to do turns so must put more faith in front traction. Forward weight bias helps them be sprinter wonders but if given much power in turns it just lifts the front out of traction to steer or rear is so unloaded innately it just spins out.
Peels rear air muscle tuck down valves will be mounted on rear brake lever so I can hit rear brake 1st and drop rear by one foot action an instant later use L hand to release front fork to full extension as I also nail front brake to howl and hand on till rear lifts out of traction and then back off front some not to fly right off. Ever tried to drag a big dog into a vet clinic with its butt on the ground and front legs out stiff, well that's how my old hound dog Peel should act.
I rarely ride to need brakes, they only work if going fairly slow on good surfaces. My ingrained first reaction is beserk throttle and steering to save surprise hazards in my face. I get red hot iron burn in hand, like a witch test, when I grab brake in panic, which causes me to let it go reflexly so will never again crash by too much brake right into what I most wanted not to hit. Ms Peel is able to go beyond phase 2 counter steering sluggish racer rates, so can use brake stabs to change aim and lean angles or save skip outs on bug guts, leaf litter or diesel spills they soak up with sand and grit thrown on it in apexes.
You racers if front slips out to low side trail braking might save it by release of front brake at same time as hard kick down jab to lock rear an instant to induce a hi side back upright in line, aimed off track edge now but still time to really brake hard enough upright on front only till able to swing back on course. Hard to find video or instruction on this so guess just have to take hobot word for it huh. Had to do this on my modern cripple more than my more secure Peel, so know its workable across the scope of cycles. I now know to never ever trail brake but emergency forced hazard crisis only.
I'm an open blank book on all your mechanical insights but you think you're going teach hobot about brakes or geometry or inertia or ballistics of cycles, LOL till crying out loud! Don't know what ya's missing out on do ya, I do and that is just too sad to me. Can't even discuss but two phases out of the 5- Five on handling energy in turns, can't see how extra height and weight above Cog decreases slowing and can only think of brakes for slowing down and likely thinks its best to be leaning while braking and no mention of throwing bike side ways on purpose to slow fastest with both brakes locked. Likely don't understand what a phase change of matter and energy means, ice to water to steam then plasma and then into radiant energy only. 1 to 5 with distinct changes of their physics in each step, nay leap up the scale.
One should never let a bike get ahead of them, 2 ways is go, real slow or so fast you out race the crashes. Brakes are the most important control to me to master and need them the least of all controls, until so fast all control inputs reverse so brake and throttle switch functions. Power up to slow down, release to snap forward, add drag to loose friction to change angle and aim into better grip.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4gmVNxOIWw[/video]
If I had ABS brakes on THE Gravel I'd not be able to make it.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d6iu-1WFxw[/video]
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3MfLcJLaCs[/video]
To go deeper we'd enter the air time antics side ways, launches and set ups and landings and reboundings, with wind gusts and ground effects, so is a whole 'nother realm I don't read much about but is main attraction I have for next Ms Peel.
Bring on your mis-guided physics and cycle handling engineering dead ends, that are too freaking dangerous and boring low G['s forces for me and Peel to get off on.