Braided vs stock brake hoses

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JimNH

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This has probably been beat to death somewhere but here goes:

I have new stock hoses on my front brake and have just installed a 13mm sleeved MC. After bleeding up, down, and sideways, the lever comes very close to the grip. Is it the flexing of the stock hoses or am I chasing an elusive bubble?
 
JimNH said:
This has probably been beat to death somewhere but here goes:

I have new stock hoses on my front brake and have just installed a 13mm sleeved MC. After bleeding up, down, and sideways, the lever comes very close to the grip. Is it the flexing of the stock hoses or am I chasing an elusive bubble?
Click to expand...

You've got a bubble. Braid reinforced rubber hoses were not as "spongey" as many like to remember. I put a new one on from GCC, firm lever as expected.
 
I garrantee it takes seasoned racer level of brake lever feel to sense-apreciate difference in new braided vs new non braided hose so keep chasing big bubble &/or layer of micro scopic bubbles adhereing to new surfaces so don't shake loose just sitting still. Do note a smaller bore master cylinder requires more travel to didsplace caliper pucks but its very rare for any off the shelf reseelves to report lever too far back so must assumme yours should not either. I've had perfect lever force-travel on normal breaking - but unknown delayed full bleeding hit after some hard squeeze squeal testing suddenly not matter how paniced hard I squeezed extra traveling lever - making me an ass assumming I was boiling DOT3 instead of just feeling air taking up the pressure. Simpleton 1st attempt would be tipping bars so resivoir highest and tieing lever back all the way over night and banging or vibrating caliper to master cyclinder. Don't squeeze lever fast at all if mc cap off.
 
If it's just a little spongy, try clamping the brake lever back overnight with a clamp or zip-tie.
The air bubbles slowly work their way up and out the M/C.
Worked great for me last week.
 
Is it the flexing of the stock hoses or am I chasing an elusive bubble?
Click to expand...

Could be both, the stock hoses do ballon especially when old and without resleeving the master cylinder just changing the hose to stainless improved my brakes. The resleeving to 13mm also increases the travel of the lever for the same fluid displacement so its good practise to change to stainless at the same time so you get some travel back.
 
You have air in there, the difference between contemporay rubber and stainless steel is imperceptible.
 
Old hose braided or not can mess with brake lever function but a new factory rubber hose works quite well even if SS stiffness gives slight more direct action. So has this been ongoing issue the reseelve was to solve but not fitting a new hose yet? If looks not an issue SS is the no brainer better hose but I don't like the out of place looks on my bone factory Combat and don't seek any more brake after mild nail hole improvement. I was shocked scared a few years ago after repeated episodes of new brake refreshed testing purposely >>> did fail after a few intervals of hard squeeze downhill twisties to later find almost micro scopic slow train of bubbles rising with lever held back most a minute. I suspect a new hose has microscopic imprefectons it takes some time for fluid to displace trapped air so suggest a few times of trying lever back then 'banging' vibrating from caliper up. I try not to need much brake d/t tire wear and going fast risks but too many times I wonder if I can modulate panic stops successful or loose it for maybe even worse crash plus embarrassment inside me and onlookers. Ugh.
 
Hi JimNH,
Going Stainless Braided is a plus, as the ballooning effect will disappear. Improve the pads as well and get Ferodo Platinum 06-6005/C or the EBC 06-1894 pads if you are using the Norton Lockheed disk brake caliper lump.
Cheers,
Tom
CNN
 
My orginal rubber brake line swelled up so much that it blocked the fluid from working after many years on the bike, had full brake lever but no brake and it happened without warning, luckly I wasn't in any dangour at the time, so go put a S/S line on, but I ended up upgrading to moden front brakes 5 years ago and glad I spent the money and the bike looks great with the 12" floating disc on the front (all Grimca, M/C, long lever, calipar, disc and S/S brake line), I am very happy with my set up and have had good brakes for the last 5 years, but it took a brake failure to make me wake up, life is more important than looking orginal.

Ashley
 
ashman said:
....... , life is more important than looking orginal.Ashley
Click to expand...
+1.....I just bought the madass140 master cylinder upgrade kit for my MK3. Other up grades are planned when the bank account can handle it. Cj
 
Well, It makes no sense to me as I've rebuilt the caliper and master cylinder before and bled it with no problems. This time all I did was replace the MC so the pad were seated just fine. I tried the suggested trick of tying the lever over night. In the AM there was no pressure left on the lever but the brake was much better. I'm at a loss to understand why and how this could possibly help but it did. It's tied again this night.
 
JimNH said:
Well, It makes no sense to me as I've rebuilt the caliper and master cylinder before and bled it with no problems. This time all I did was replace the MC so the pad were seated just fine. I tried the suggested trick of tying the lever over night. In the AM there was no pressure left on the lever but the brake was much better. I'm at a loss to understand why and how this could possibly help but it did. It's tied again this night.
Click to expand...

Motorcycle brakes have caused me to have to crack open fittings to expell all air. Lather, rinse, repeat
 
JimNH said:
Well, It makes no sense to me as I've rebuilt the caliper and master cylinder before and bled it with no problems. This time all I did was replace the MC so the pad were seated just fine. I tried the suggested trick of tying the lever over night. In the AM there was no pressure left on the lever but the brake was much better. I'm at a loss to understand why and how this could possibly help but it did. It's tied again this night.
Click to expand...

I think little bubbles can cling to horizontal sections and brake line transitions near the M/C. Keep at it. Tap the line and M/C to encourage the bubbles to break free. Also another round of bleeding at the caliper might help.
 
Aren't ALL brake lines steel braided? When I worked at Dunlop they certainly were.
Dunlop made most UK Lockheed and Girling brake lines and rubber seals at the time, 1972/3.
The shop where the braiding was knitted on was the noisiest work environment ever.

The braid was applied using modified knitting machines - Leicester being a major UK hosiery town, with the machine tool infrastructure to make and modify for any purpose.


Presumably the failure mode is the inner liner degrading, allowing fluid to get behind the liner layer, hence the ballooning?
I don't think hoses were ever considered to be a "life of the vehicle" thing.
 
nickguzzi said:
Aren't ALL brake lines steel braided?
Click to expand...

Braided (internally) yes, but not steel (original Commando brake line).
Braided vs stock brake hoses
 
nickguzzi said:
Aren't ALL brake lines steel braided? When I worked at Dunlop they certainly were.
Dunlop made most UK Lockheed and Girling brake lines and rubber seals at the time, 1972/3.
The shop where the braiding was knitted on was the noisiest work environment ever.

The braid was applied using modified knitting machines - Leicester being a major UK hosiery town, with the machine tool infrastructure to make and modify for any purpose.


Presumably the failure mode is the inner liner degrading, allowing fluid to get behind the liner layer, hence the ballooning?
I don't think hoses were ever considered to be a "life of the vehicle" thing.
Click to expand...

Mostly right, fabric braid being the norm.

As a benchmark, and to your last point, all modern motorcycle owner's manuals maintenance schedule includes "replace brakes hoses", typically at 5 years. All hoses have dates on them, USDOT mandated for decades. Orher markets have similar requirements, anyone?
 
L.A.B. said:
nickguzzi said:
Aren't ALL brake lines steel braided?
Click to expand...

Braided (internally) yes, but not steel (original Commando brake line).
Braided vs stock brake hoses
Click to expand...

What is the actual line made of, the part under the braiding?

I believe the braiding on those hoses is just to keep it from rubbing on the rubber outer.
 
swooshdave said:
What is the actual line made of, the part under the braiding?
Click to expand...

Inside the braiding is a 'rubber' tube, but I couldn't tell you what type of rubber it is.
 
swooshdave said:
L.A.B. said:
nickguzzi said:
Aren't ALL brake lines steel braided?
Click to expand...

Braided (internally) yes, but not steel (original Commando brake line).
Braided vs stock brake hoses
Click to expand...

What is the actual line made of, the part under the braiding?

I believe the braiding on those hoses is just to keep it from rubbing on the rubber outer.
Click to expand...

The braid is what allows it to be a pressure hose and not a balloon.
 
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