Blown Con Rod

Rohan said:

Some rebuilders won't use D rods. ?

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"the invisible stamping line where the two stamps met".... Yea. Right. 8)

I'm still ROTFLing on this one - honestly if that is the explanation of the "mythical" D-rod failures I have strong doubts on the rebuilding capabilities of said rebuilder.


Tim

LAB-
1. Yes, that particular source is still listed as distributing Andover Norton parts- which it is, but not exclusively. None of the addresses given sell solely Andover Norton parts, but there is the more honest ones who source critical parts only from us, and others. There is probably only one way to make sure what you are getting, but I do not want to over-advertize it- I am interested in the continued existence of a dealer network.

2. As far as replacing the old original conrods with our current ones is concerned, this can obviously be done, why not. However, and I probably should not say this, if the original rod is o.k., I'd re-use it.

Joe Seifert

hello ctsb

Another option if you are going to replace both rods, and pistons, would be to consider Jim Scmidt's Carrillo rod and light weight piston set. They may work out more economical and Carrillo's will give you added confidence, and less vibration.
Cheers Rich

ZFD said:

I can not believe he substitutes the genuine forged item by a turned-from-solid bolt made in China, at a fraction of the price, to increase his profits, can you?

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ZFD said:

1. Yes, that particular source is still listed as distributing Andover Norton parts- which it is, but not exclusively. None of the addresses given sell solely Andover Norton parts, but there is the more honest ones who source critical parts only from us, and others.

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It does however, seem to be rather hypocritical on the one hand, to proclaim that AN is aware of a particular Norton specialist who is offering cheaper and possibly inferior quality pattern parts in place of genuine AN spares-which could potentially be highly damaging to AN's reputation, but on the other hand, AN still appears happy to continue to actively promote that Norton specialist because he/they does in fact, sell a large amount of Andover Norton parts?

OK, 2 questions:

1: Can the "d" rods be inspected in some way for a potential defect?

2: Who sells the best con rod bolts/nuts?

Dear LAB,
Yes and no. For one, I inherited a well-known situation that had been going on since 1977. I did not cause it, I certainly don't welcome it.

Even dealers who occasionally buy a crucial item- not all cases are as clear-cut as the one I am thinking of- may still be selling pirate parts alongside ours, "forgetting" to mention the fact to the customer they sell both, often at identical prices....... That means if we terminated an agreement with one dealer we should probably have, for very much the same reason, terminated another at the same time. This other, unrecognized (by us) pirate dealer may then benefit from the decline of his competitor. Plus there are items any trader can source elsewhere- for whatever reason- without going down in quality. Normed bearings from reputable manufacturers come to mind, spark plugs etc, items that we don't have manufactured exclusively for us but which are generally available. Even our most loyal dealers, those of whom I would personally buy parts, do it. Where do you draw the line?

I have, in recent months, brought it to public attention that the NOC spares scheme insists on selling pirate parts for Commandos, made in far away countries, sourced from a well-known wholesaler.

We have stopped advertizing in "Roadholder" for that very reason. I have spoken to the trade advertisement manager of the Club openly on two occasions, first when we cancelled our advert, a second time this month when he approached me again. Both times he promised to bring my reasons to the Club Committee's attention.

I have a moral problem with similar consequences against traders. As opposed to the club- by definition a non-profitable organisation- their daily bread depends on their trading. Shooting at a non-profitable organisation that I have supported with my membership fees for over three decades is different to shooting down a trader who makes his, and most probably his dependants (family's) living from trading.

I have therefore started a programme to mark the genuine stuff in a way that is not as easy to imitate as our labels which, I hear, frequently find their way into bags that do NOT contain our goods. Reprinting our labels from a sample is easy. However, in a casting our mark is hard to imitate, so our latest castings have the word "ANIL" (for Andover Norton International Ltd) cast in- see http://www.andover-norton.co.uk/News.htm. In our Production Racer fork sliders we have TX0032 instead, because these have been manufactured on a joint venture basis with Mick Hemmings Motorcycles.

The next thing we will mark is stanchions- the ones that are currently being made, and all future ones, will bear our mark. However, for cost and size reasonst it is simply not possible to mark EVERY item, so I guess for the near future the "buyer beware" policy is best. If the dealer of your choice runs a chickenshed industry manufacturing "Norton" parts, or tells you tall stories what absolute s**t Andover Norton parts are and that he has "his" far better parts instead, you can see it as an indication this may not the best source if you want the genuine article.

Firing a dealer seems easy to an outsider. What you probably don't see is that if I do it, and if he was very much into Nortons, I ruin him instantly. There is a lot of parts- vital parts- that can only be gotten from us. If supply ceases he might as well close down shop straight away. Do you want to take on the responsibility for it? I don't.

Joe Seifert

I have a pair of pre-featherbed stanchions on the bench that came from .....#S.
The lower thread in one is very poor, infact the forth thread is torn away ,plus 10 thou out of true with the outside, Suggesting these parts are not checked,or if checked sent out anyway in a substandard condictiion.
Bigend bolts ; If they are not ground on the diameter ...send them back :!:

As Andover Norton don't do pre-featherbed stanchions I can not comment, though I think I know who made them.
Joe Seifert

ZFD said:

For one, I inherited a well-known situation that had been going on since 1977. I did not cause it, I certainly don't welcome it.


Even dealers who occasionally buy a crucial item- not all cases are as clear-cut as the one I am thinking of- may still be selling pirate parts alongside ours, "forgetting" to mention the fact to the customer they sell both, often at identical prices....... That means if we terminated an agreement with one dealer we should probably have, for very much the same reason, terminated another at the same time. This other, unrecognized (by us) pirate dealer may then benefit from the decline of his competitor. Plus there are items any trader can source elsewhere- for whatever reason- without going down in quality. Normed bearings from reputable manufacturers come to mind, spark plugs etc, items that we don't have manufactured exclusively for us but which are generally available. Even our most loyal dealers, those of whom I would personally buy parts, do it. Where do you draw the line?

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Agreed, the parts situation was somewhat different in 1977 than as it is now. Unfortunately what you said seems to send out the message that: "AN thinks it's OK for these people to carry on doing as they have been doing".

ZFD said:

I have a moral problem with similar consequences against traders. As opposed to the club- by definition a non-profitable organisation- their daily bread depends on their trading. Shooting at a non-profitable organisation that I have supported with my membership fees for over three decades is different to shooting down a trader who makes his, and most probably his dependants (family's) living from trading.

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I think if most AN parts traders were given the choice to either sell genuine AN parts (where an AN part actually existed for a particular component) but still free to sell their "own brand" parts etc. (but not listed as anything resembling an AN part number) or to go their own way-then I think most traders would opt to remain an AN parts supplier, if they did not agree to those terms, then that's their decision-not yours.

ZFD said:

Firing a dealer seems easy to an outsider. What you probably don't see is that if I do it, and if he was very much into Nortons, I ruin him instantly. There is a lot of parts- vital parts- that can only be gotten from us. If supply ceases he might as well close down shop straight away. Do you want to take on the responsibility for it? I don't.

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To an outsider, that just seems like: "We don't want to rock the boat-because we could all end up getting wet" that if a supplier closes down then AN would potentially lose out too, at least in the short term.
As for responsibility, what about responsibility to the end user, the ordinary people who buy parts on trust that they are actually getting quality parts fit for purpose?
If, by taking on that responsibility, it resulted in less "home-grown" parts being substituted for genuine parts-even if the end result was a few Norton specialists ceasing to trade (which I doubt would happen) then I would expect the MD of the company to shoulder that burden of responsibility without question, however it's your company so no doubt you will do as you see fit, even if it is perhaps regarded as too lenient by some outsiders.

powerdoc said:

OK, 2 questions:

1: Can the "d" rods be inspected in some way for a potential defect?

2: Who sells the best con rod bolts/nuts?

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1: Not sure what to inspect with "D" rods. Andover's article (statement of the problem) really does not give a lot to go by.

2: Jim Schmidt sells a tidy package of norton Carillo rods and pistons. Pricey for street use but opportunitty to reduce reciprocating mass and have piece of mind that the rods will not fail.

I have to agree with LAB on MOST of his point's on this. IMHO I would lay this issue straight on the dealer's lap with an ultimatum of either make it WELL known what is genuine AN and what is a pirate part, If that is NOT amicable to him than pull him off as a dealer as that was his choice NOT yours and you have NO reason to have ANY ill feelings about it. as I see it you have a bigger responsibility to the AN brand and your MANY other dealers along with the final consumer than one low life dealer. I will take one step farther IF the offender is counterfeiting with pirate parts using AN labels I would look at prosecuting the thief!!!!

L.A.B. said:

Unfortunately what you said seems to send out the message that: "AN thinks it's OK for these people to carry on doing as they have been doing".

ZFD said:

I have a moral problem with similar consequences against traders. As opposed to the club- by definition a non-profitable organisation- their daily bread depends on their trading. Shooting at a non-profitable organisation that I have supported with my membership fees for over three decades is different to shooting down a trader who makes his, and most probably his dependants (family's) living from trading.

Click to expand...

I think if most AN parts traders were given the choice to either sell genuine AN parts (where an AN part actually existed for a particular component) but still free to sell their "own brand" parts etc. (but not listed as anything resembling an AN part number) or to go their own way-then I think most traders would opt to remain an AN parts supplier, if they did not agree to those terms, then that's their decision-not yours.

ZFD said:

Firing a dealer seems easy to an outsider. What you probably don't see is that if I do it, and if he was very much into Nortons, I ruin him instantly. There is a lot of parts- vital parts- that can only be gotten from us. If supply ceases he might as well close down shop straight away. Do you want to take on the responsibility for it? I don't.

Click to expand...

To an outsider, that just seems like: "We don't want to rock the boat-because we could all end up getting wet" that if a supplier closes down then AN would potentially lose out too, at least in the short term.
As for responsibility, what about responsibility to the end user, the ordinary people who buy parts on trust that they are actually getting quality parts fit for purpose?
If, by taking on that responsibility, it resulted in less "home-grown" parts being substituted for genuine parts-even if the end result was a few Norton specialists ceasing to trade (which I doubt would happen) then I would expect the MD of the company to shoulder that burden of responsibility without question, however it's your company so no doubt you will do as you see fit, even if it is perhaps regarded as too lenient by some outsiders.

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Answers:

Dances with Shrapnel: I have no qualms using the famous "D"-rods, and am convinced our forged original conrods are better than billet conrods on strength and steel rods on weight. Guess what all my Commandos have inside them, road and race.

LAB:
You are a bit rash in making me, owner of Andover Norton for just under five years, responsible for a Norton spares history including rather unfortunate pirating/low quality substituting habits that were born and cultivated in the three decades BEFORE I owned Andover Norton.
Furthermore, you make good use of the fact the boss of Andover Norton is no longer a faceless nobody hiding behind a corporate facade, but a Norton owner, rider, racer, nut, who takes his job and the business of Andover Norton seriously.

You also show you don't know me. The idea I back down from a fight would make all my friends and business partners grin. I have told a lot of people in this industry what I think of them, and it wasn't complimentary. And the idea we could be afraid of firing a dealer is, today, fortunately no longer the case. I have seen to it we do not depend on a single dealer for our survival any more- this was the case some years ago and was still, to a lesser extent, the case when I took the company on. Believe it or not, I myself- as Norton Motors in Germany- am now Andover Norton's second biggest customer for genuine Norton spares worldwide. And Andover Norton can survive without any given single (trade) customer.

I seem to remember an insignificant motorcycle manufacturer from what was once an English colony had similar problems regarding pirating and stuff coming from India and China for their motorcycles. I heard they were riding a wave of financial success at the time and invested millions in legal costs to stop the pirates and threatened their dealers with cancelling their contracts if they did not stop selling pirate goods. Now apart from the fact Andover Norton does not have the market power, or the financial power, of this aforementioned manufacturer, we have no 3 prospective dealers waiting for us to fire the rebel one. Quite the opposite, in fact: our dealers are in the majority near retirement age and we are happy they are currently still there, to serve the customer in the field.

I decline to accept responsability for a state of affairs I had no part in creating. What I do is to actively promote the genuine spare part and to gradually introduce means for the layman to seperate our goods from the stuff that is in the market from other sources. There are no legal means available to stop product pirates in England, let alone in the whole world. As long as the pirate calls something "will fit" or "suitable for" or, as in one case, says "OE numbers for reference purposes only", I see no option but to let them do what they do and just try to be better in quality and make people aware of it.

Reading a recent posting in this forum on what pirate oil filters can be used on a Norton, with long discussions how many Cents can be saved by getting something other than the real thing, makes me wonder why I bother. Let's face it, genuine filters cost very little. It would not hurt the average Norton owner to order half a dozen with his next parts order and be safe for several years. So if the consensus is "let us buy whatever crap fits, as long as it is cheap", then you try to tell me these are the guys I should save from cheap and nasty imitation spares?

Andover Norton is by history and nature currently still a wholesaler. This will change as dealers retire. We do supply end users, and on an eye-to-eye basis I do recommend trustworthy dealers where I know people get the real deal. More I am currently not prepared to do. I have several families- my employees'- in England depending on Andover Norton's healthy financial state. I do rock the boat as much as I consider safe, but I can not let it go under because you now have somebody you feel you can demand it from. Why did you not ask BSA/Regal Group? Why not Mike Jackson and Bill Colquhoun? Or, before that, the Managing Directors of Norton, Philippe Le Roux or Dennis Poore?

I am honoured by your misconception I am responsible for all of Norton's history, but, frankly, it was not all my doing!

And Bill:
We have to catch him first. What some lowlife does out there in the sticks we might either never hear, or might not be able to prove. If, as in one offending dealer's case, his catalogue distringuishes between "genuine" and "pattern", how can I prove he sold pattern as genuine unless I want to constantly do the Pink Panther and order in disguise?
Some ideas sound right but are unworkable.

Joe

Most interesting. Thank you for being so frank and for treating us as adults. Most of us have an idea of whom we regard as the 'good guys'. Perhaps unsurprisingly though, vast numbers still fall for large adverts.

It is indeed probably impossible to apply sanctions to dealers who don't supply exclusively AN. Apart from anything else, many of them deal with makes other than Norton which means they will inevitably be sourcing elsewhere and we all know what cheapskates Triumph owners are !

ZFD said:

Dances with Shrapnel: I have no qualms using the famous "D"-rods, and am convinced our forged original conrods are better than billet conrods on strength and steel rods on weight. Guess what all my Commandos have inside them, road and race.
Joe

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It seems like opinions vary as to the "D"-rods. Don't assume that I agree or disagree with the assertion made by Norvil on their website. They are refering to historical components (later model Commando con rods with the "D" stamp). I would ask "does Norvil have some sort of agenda against "D" rods", sounds somewhat silly does it not? Does Norvil benefit from their statements? I am honestly reserving judgement on the quality of the "D" rods.

Norvil does seem to make a credible case against "pirated" connecting rod bolts.

Before making claims of weight advantage of alloy against steel I suggest that you look at the total package that Jim Schmidt offers; connecting rod/wrist pin/piston package is considerably lighter.

hobot said:

Well that's informative on how an over powered rod splits up, which is not what I've seen in my couple of rod breaks that occurred "after" an oil comma piston let got then a re-used bolt that had corrosion evidence of fracture gradually creeping to point of no return and quit while on about mere coasting power below 55 mph.

I think what helped the piston let go was before I got Trixie someone had put in Al gasket of standard bore but piston was 40 over so it rubbed itself to death.

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Steve,

Just spoke with a fellow racer regarding after market alloy high performance rods (Non Norton Vintage) where he had at least one failure. Heat was a culprit and flexing of the wrist pin (wrist pin was aggressively tapered for weight reduction) . Lots of things can contribute to splitting rods. Interesting stuff.

ZFD said:

LAB:
You are a bit rash in making me, owner of Andover Norton for just under five years, responsible for a Norton spares history including rather unfortunate pirating/low quality substituting habits that were born and cultivated in the three decades BEFORE I owned Andover Norton.

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I don't think I did? Or perhaps you misunderstood? As it was you who mentioned 1977.

ZFD said:

You also show you don't know me.

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True, I can only go by what you say.

ZFD said:

The idea I back down from a fight would make all my friends and business partners grin. I have told a lot of people in this industry what I think of them, and it wasn't complimentary. And the idea we could be afraid of firing a dealer is, today, fortunately no longer the case. I have seen to it we do not depend on a single dealer for our survival any more- this was the case some years ago and was still, to a lesser extent, the case when I took the company on.

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That's more like it, and it's bit of a turn around from what you said earlier!

ZFD said:

Why did you not ask BSA/Regal Group? Why not Mike Jackson and Bill Colquhoun? Or, before that, the Managing Directors of Norton, Philippe Le Roux or Dennis Poore?

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Sorry, but I honestly don't know why I should have done so, or what that has to do with the current situation?

ZFD said:

I am honoured by your misconception I am responsible for all of Norton's history, but, frankly, it was not all my doing!

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Well, I didn't say, (think or mean) that at all.

ZFD said:

And Bill:
We have to catch him first. What some lowlife does out there in the sticks we might either never hear, or might not be able to prove. If, as in one offending dealer's case, his catalogue distringuishes between "genuine" and "pattern", how can I prove he sold pattern as genuine unless I want to constantly do the Pink Panther and order in disguise?
Some ideas sound right but are unworkable.

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Most suppliers sell via the Internet so certain "counterfeitable" parts could be periodically bought from them by "mystery shoppers" so nothing unworkable there.

Inferior parts are to no ones benefit. The part fails, rod bolts= possible destroyed cases= wrecked bike on eBay. Inferior forks= crashed bike= wrecked bike on eBay. Either way another Norton is gone= one less person buying parts. Each time it happens the amount of customers is less one. Sooner or later there are no customers. I can't see any economic benefit for anyone. Graeme

GRM 450 said:

Inferior parts are to no ones benefit. The part fails, rod bolts= possible destroyed cases.

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If you see the prices charged on ebay by one well known Uk parts supplier for seconhand crankcases which often need repair a "leg out the bed" due to a failed bolt is probably good business for them.

D-rods: If you tell people they should throw out a perfectly good part and suggest they buy your different, new, but equally good part, then I for one see profits on the horizon that would otherwise not be made.

Failures through inferior parts: One could argue it is in the short-term interest of traders for components to fail, creating new business for them. The argument about a Norton being broken up holds no water- in bits it is not necessarily more valuable than complete, and I doubt many Nortons are being scrapped these days.

ZFD said:

The argument about a Norton being broken up holds no water- in bits it is not necessarily more valuable than complete, and I doubt many Nortons are being scrapped these days.

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I suggest you do a search of COMPLETED SALES significant Norton parts on e-bay, and tally them up. You'll be suprised.

Yes, Virginia, there is money to be made selling a Norton in parts on e-bay.

Persoanlly, I have never, and will never, pull a bike apart to sell it one part at a time.