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Big valves conversion made in Germany

Discussion in 'Norton Commando Motorcycles (Classic)' started by yves norton seeley, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Hi there,
    Here be the big valves conversion made by Klaus Moning from Germany, Klaus is specialised in conversion from british cylinder heads, He changes my Fullauto head to plus 3mm valves on inlet and exhaust, I am very happy with is work.
    If you wish to contact him, feel free to PM me
    Yves







    I'll post the next pictures in the next reply
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  2. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
  3. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
  4. rotorwrinch

    rotorwrinch

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Yves, would you be kind enough to repost the drawing of Calculation of Valve Angles? Even with photo editing I cannot clear it up enough to read the values. THNX
     
  5. lcrken

    lcrken VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Thanks for posting this, Yves. I've seen big valve Norton conversions from a number of tuners over the years, but this is the first time I've seen any drawings and information on the details.

    Ken
     
  6. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Looks like your man knows what he’s doing there Yves!

    Should be a rocket ship when it’s done !!
     
  7. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Hi Fast Eddie,

    Yes, Klaus is not only a top engineer but also a very nice man
    I tell him to keep the Fullauto drawing from the head

    I will not know if it will be a rocket ship or the Titanic before end of january, as you know I will go to 920cc, I buy the 920 Maney cilinder and I am waithing for the pistons from Jim Schmidt

    I keep you posted about the results after the first test rides
    Yves
     
  8. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    You can contact Klaus at klaus.monning@freenet.de
     
  9. Klaus Monning

    Klaus Monning

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2014
    Hello Yves and all who are intersted in this big valve conversion,
    thank you Yves, that you like my work. I just want to point out that the big valve conversions can currently safely only be done on cylinder heads with the small outer valve guide diameter. These are the Fullauto and the 750cc cylinder heads. I can asure you that all work on Fullauto heads need to be done with the greatest respect for the pure quality (and expense) of these items.
    I have yet to find a solution converting the heads with the bigger valve guides (850cc heads). If I re- angle those I end up with an outer diameter of approximately 18 or more mm. This is not acceptable, because towards the carburettor connection you end up having an 8mm long press- fit and towards the combustion chamber you'll have something like a 19mm press- fit. With this configuration you press the guide miss- alligned into the new bore. That's certainly not what you want.
    Solutions could be:
    1.) Welding the "old" valve guide bores in the head. This had been done several times but it seems impossible to weld the bores without ending up having blow holes in the welding.
    2.) Weld in a bush for the new 750cc guides (laser- welding!!!). Rather expensive because you bore the new bores first, press in the bushes and than weld them up with laser- welding.
    If you use 750cc cylinder heads you have the advantage that you can use standard 850cc guides after re- angling, which I did with Yve's cylinder head. Certainly with 750- heads you have to re- set the 4 outer bolt bores which are in a different position to the 850cc heads.
    Anyway, Yves gave my E-Mail address further above. If you want the drawing and the (Excel-) calculations for the following valve sizes: 41/36, 42/38, 43/38 and 44/38 (mm) give me a message.
    Best Regards
    Klaus
     
    johnny Lagdon likes this.
  10. johnny Lagdon

    johnny Lagdon

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2016
    Klaus did work on my 850 head, big inlet and exhaust valves, plus other work.
    combined with 35mmFCR's, some flow work, Maney barrels and pistons, lightened rockers and PW3 cam, and 5 speed.
    I confirm it goes like the proverbial rocketship.
     
  11. splatt

    splatt

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2008
    Very nice work
    Ive been machining for nearly 30 years, seem to be salvaging CRAPAPILLER parts at the moment, different end of the performance scale but I still try to work to around 1/2thou , Ive never been able to get my head around the reference points for this as one of the set up points is 1 1/2 '' in the air ,very hard to clock in a zero in fresh air. 15 years engine rebuilding I learnt how far the valve stem moves if the guides crooked , would very much like to see the drawings that are posted cant expand up clearly, thanks interesting post
     
  12. Klaus Monning

    Klaus Monning

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2014
    John,
    it's very nice hearing form you again after such a long time. What a small world we have in the internet.
    Anyway: a lot has chnaged since I prepared your cylinder- head. I'm now using an adjustable angle- table. That way I'm much more flexible for different valve sizes and angles. I'm also using MIRA valve cutting tools which give me absolute exact angle geometries at all valve seats. But it is very difficult and time- consuming to allign the fixed cutting tool/milling- spindle unit to the exact angle of the guide bore.
     
    johnny Lagdon likes this.
  13. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Hi there,
    When I said it could be the Titanic and not a Rocket ship, I mean that all what I did this winter is a step in the unknow, of course I trust the work from Klaus, but near the bigger valves I go to 920 cc with a new cilinder from Maney the cilinder is Nicasil coated, to me this si the step in the unknow wiht cast iron sleeves.
    In the pass I gat good experience with Nicasil on my TZ 750 alloy cilinders from my Side Car engine.
    I will receive the dished pistons from Jim Schmidt at January, they will be coated and Jim garantee me that the rings will be compatibel with Nicasil.
    I am also afraight for the head gasket, I will try a CR from 10.5 /1, but I can play with different tickness of gasket to lower the CR if needed.
    The second point to be afraid is my Alton starter, will it be strong enough?
    Yves
     
  14. Klaus Monning

    Klaus Monning

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2014
    Hello,
    you might be interested to know more about the reason for the conversion. To me and for most of us we are trying to give more average cross section during the entire operation cycle with earlier opening, later closing or wider opening of the valves we have. By doing that we will always have more acceleration with resulting higher loads on the valve train. So, I believe that with bigger valves at a given engine speed the loads on the valve train will be lower than fitting tricky cam shafts which may also need different (stronger) valve springs etc. Certainly the ports will have to be adjusted to the bigger valves which will also result in slightly higher performance for a given camshaft.
    Of course with bigger valves, tricky camshafts and suitable port work the performance can be sufficient enough for racing. But for my kind of riding: Quick cornering, sometimes a real good thrash down the Autobahn my conversion (currently 43/38mm and an S 2 cam and a 91mm stroke Nourish Crank) the power is absolutely satisfactory even for testing the ability of Triumphs Tridents or even Hondas 750s.
    Best Regards
    Klaus
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
  15. grandpaul

    grandpaul VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2008
    There are plans for an 8 valve Norton head, maybe next year...

    (fwiw)
     
  16. worntorn

    worntorn

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Hi Klaus

    The valve conversion is interesting, do you find it also improves midrange?

    Re those 750 Hondas and Tridents-
    Did we not officially beat those with a stock 750 Commando back in May of 1970? March 1970 Superbike Seven , Norton on top of the pack in the 1/4 mile testing.

    Glen
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
  17. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Hi Glen,
    Yves here,
    The valve conversion improve midrange and top power and the work from Klaus is spot-on, not one issue so far
    Yves
     
  18. Klaus Monning

    Klaus Monning

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2014
    Thank you Yves,
    I must add that the quality of a Fullauto head makes things really easy. The original guide bores are positioned exactly where they should be. And that makes the work straight forword. All the best to you your wife and your bike.
    Best Regards
    Klaus
     
  19. mdt-son

    mdt-son

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2012
    Hello Klaus,

    I didn't want to mess up the thread on rocker trust washers, and am posting in this thread instead.
    I am an advocate of rotating valves too. Can you please post a picture of the Norton vs. the BMW valves and collars and keepers and the valve caps you are using? 42/38 mm is quite an upgrade to the stock 37.8/33 mm valves and I note you do even bigger valves. What is the stem size of your valves? How does your valve guides look like compared to the stock ones?

    Rgds.
    Knut
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  20. 84ok

    84ok

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014

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