Best e-start for Pre-MkIII is...

cliffa said:

No disrespect to anyone on here, but this is a rather pointless poll. The only valid response was from @allver67 who has experience of both. I think we all Know the pros and cons of each type. I have an Alton, but as it’s the only one I have experience of, I cannot vote to say it’s better than any of the others.

Click to expand...

Exactly,you'd need someone that's fitted all of them
And actually using them

cliffa said:

No disrespect to anyone on here, but this is a rather pointless poll. As far as I can see the only valid response was from @allver67 who has experience of both. I think we all Know the pros and cons of each type. I have an Alton, but as it’s the only one I have experience of, I cannot vote to say it’s better than any of the others.

Click to expand...

That’s true.

But then the other way of looking at is, you like your Alton, so vote for the Alton !

Fast Eddie said:

That’s true.

But then the other way of looking at is, you like your Alton, so vote for the Alton !

Click to expand...

But the question is "which is the best" not which is your favourite

I love my Alton I actually have 2 of them
But I voted cnw because to me it looks like the best for a pre mk3

cliffa said:

No disrespect to anyone on here, but this is a rather pointless poll. As far as I can see the only valid response was from @allver67 who has experience of both. I think we all Know the pros and cons of each type. I have an Alton, but as it’s the only one I have experience of, I cannot vote to say it’s better than any of the others.

Click to expand...

Ah, good sense. Where's the fun in that

baz said:

I love my Alton I actually have 2 of them
But I voted cnw because to me it looks like the best for a pre mk3

Click to expand...

That's more like it

I'm just glad I have Mk3s and don't have to make a choice about how to make a superior bike.............

cliffa said:

No disrespect to anyone on here, but this is a rather pointless poll. As far as I can see the only valid response was from @allver67 who has experience of both. I think we all Know the pros and cons of each type. I have an Alton, but as it’s the only one I have experience of, I cannot vote to say it’s better than any of the others.

Click to expand...

That could be said about all opinion polls. If the point was to prove which was best then it wouldn't be a poll - it would be a discussion with pro and con facts (something some here refuse to do).

cliffa said:

No disrespect to anyone on here, but this is a rather pointless poll. As far as I can see the only valid response was from @allver67 who has experience of both. I think we all Know the pros and cons of each type. I have an Alton, but as it’s the only one I have experience of, I cannot vote to say it’s better than any of the others.

Click to expand...

Then there are some who are considering the purchase of an E start.
Considering the cost, gathering as much info as possible, including this pole offering a lot of 1st hand info/experience, would be a solid source of input.
Helpful and interesting...so honestly I don't think sharing and/or exchange of ideas and opinions pointless.

Lineslinger said:

Then there are some who are considering the purchase of an E start.
Considering the cost, gathering as much info as possible, including this pole offering a lot of 1st hand info/experience, would be a solid source of input.
Helpful and interesting...so honestly I don't think sharing and/or exchange of ideas and opinions pointless.

Click to expand...

I very much doubt that cliffa meant the whole thing is pointless
It's the wording
Asking what 'the best starter for a pre mk3 commando ' anyone could have an opinion on that
It is not the same as asking 'what starter do you have '
It's still a great discussion because if you were thinking of buying one you'd like to hear good bad and ugly stories to help you make a decision

My e-start is an 12-E wellington

cliffa said:

No disrespect to anyone on here, but this is a rather pointless poll. As far as I can see the only valid response was from @allver67 who has experience of both. I think we all Know the pros and cons of each type. I have an Alton, but as it’s the only one I have experience of, I cannot vote to say it’s better than any of the others.

Click to expand...

baz said:

I very much doubt that cliffa meant the whole thing is pointless
It's the wording
Asking what 'the best starter for a pre mk3 commando ' anyone could have an opinion on that
It is not the same as asking 'what starter do you have '
It's still a great discussion because if you were thinking of buying one you'd like to hear good bad and ugly stories to help you make a decision

Click to expand...

Baz,
I have enjoyed reading the discussion...Hell, I knew the title asking "the best starter for a pre MKIII Commando" was a bit provocative, that's a good thing IMO.
I don't speculate too much on wording intent in a post. "This is a rather pointless poll" read clearly to me and my tendency to take the message/words as they are clearly written.
Some of that's on me for not being insightful enough in terms reading between the lines, my wife reminds me of such as often as she can.

First of all, Happy and Healthy New Year!

Ok, so I have re-read the whole thread. I was wrong, there are three members who have both Alton and CNW...

@ebyker said he would buy an Alton if he needed to buy another.
@lazyeye6 said he would buy a CNW if he needed to buy another.
@allver67 said he would buy a CNW if he only had one bike, but if doing a resto would by an Alton for it's close to stock MKIII look.

To help folks who may be looking to buy one of the offerings I have put together what I think are the pros and cons of each. The pricing is assuming the buyer is in the U.K.

Alton

Price £2136 (including UK VAT)

Pros:
Lowest price starter.
Easy to install.
Can be used with the original primary chain or belt conversions from various suppliers (although some machining may be required).
Retains original aircleaner.
Superb support

Cons:
Drive to the engine relies on the sprag unit being clamped tightly to the front sprocket or pulley.
Use of the original alternator not possible
Marginal charging in low speed situations (in my experience)
Users have reported the plastic shear pins letting go in normal operation. (extra can be added which fixes the issue).

CNW

Price £2470 ($3145) in the U.S. (As far as I'm aware there is no UK stockist, so shipping plus import duty must be factored in).

Pros:
Easy to install.
It's all gear driven, very robust and well engineered.
Includes belt drive kit and clutch drum.
Retains use of the original alternator.
Superb support.

Cons:
Use of original aircleaner not possible.
Rather bulky appearance.
Very long lead time currently.


Norvil

Price £2940 (including UK VAT, for the version without supplied battery )

Pros:
Very simple direct drive using what looks like a commonly used pre-engaged starter.
Includes belt drive kit and clutch drum.
Comes with it's own mainshaft outrigger support and bearing (that is a big plus in my opinion).
Retains use of the original alternator.
The easiest to change a broken belt.
Starter motor mounted on cradle not on inner cover.
Discreet appearance.

Cons:
The installation is a BIG job.
Use of original aircleaner not possible.
Support - This is new to the market, so no feedback yet.

Images of each installed...

Alton


CNW


Norvil

Hi All, Happy New Year.
I fitted an Alton on my wife's 850 MK2A about 2 years ago and it has been excellent no problems ( Tri Spark fitted as well ).
My Commando's are all kickers but I do have an Alton on my Velocette Venom which had some minor problems which were easily sorted with good back up from Alton France.
We chose the Alton as we live in the UK and it seemed less hassle to supply as it was readily available.
The CNW does look a good bit of kit but Alton gets my vote for the above reasons.

cliffa said:

First of all, Happy and Healthy New Year!

Ok, so I have re-read the whole thread. I was wrong, there are three members who have both Alton and CNW...

@ebyker said he would buy an Alton if he needed to buy another.
@lazyeye6 said he would buy a CNW if he needed to buy another.
@allver67 said he would buy a CNW if he only had one bike, but if doing a resto would by an Alton for it's close to stock MKIII look.

To help folks who may be looking to buy one of the offerings I have put together what I think are the pros and cons of each. The pricing is assuming the buyer is in the U.K.

Alton

Price £2136 (including UK VAT)

Pros:
Lowest price starter.
Easy to install.
Can be used with chain or belt from various suppliers.
Retains original aircleaner.
Superb support

Cons:
Drive to the engine relies on the sprague being clamped to the front sprocket or pulley.
Use of the original alternator not possible
Marginal charging in low speed situations (in my experience)
Users have reported the plastic shear pins letting go in normal operation. (extra can be added which fixes the issue).

CNW

Price £2470 ($3145) in the U.S. (As far as I'm aware there is no UK stockist, so shipping plus import duty must be factored in).

Pros:
Easy to install.
Very robust and well engineered.
Use of the original alternator.
Superb support.

Cons:
Use of original aircleaner not possible.
Rather bulky appearance.
Very long lead time currently.


Norvil

Price £2940 (including UK VAT, for the version without supplied battery )

Pros:
Very simple direct drive using what looks like a commonly used pre-engaged starter.
Comes with it's own mainshaft outrigger support and bearing (that is a big plus in my opinion).
Use of the original alternator.
Discreet appearance.

Cons:
No Sprague, but does it need one?
The installation is a BIG job.
Use of original aircleaner not possible.
Support - This is new to the market, so no feedback yet.

Images of each installed...

Alton
View attachment 111822

CNW
View attachment 111820

Norvil
View attachment 111821

Click to expand...

I can just imagine who would be blamed if there was any problems fitting the Norvil one .

cliffa said:

First of all, Happy and Healthy New Year!

Ok, so I have re-read the whole thread. I was wrong, there are three members who have both Alton and CNW...

@ebyker said he would buy an Alton if he needed to buy another.
@lazyeye6 said he would buy a CNW if he needed to buy another.
@allver67 said he would buy a CNW if he only had one bike, but if doing a resto would by an Alton for it's close to stock MKIII look.

To help folks who may be looking to buy one of the offerings I have put together what I think are the pros and cons of each. The pricing is assuming the buyer is in the U.K.

Alton

Price £2136 (including UK VAT)

Pros:
Lowest price starter.
Easy to install.
Can be used with chain or belt from various suppliers.
Retains original aircleaner.
Superb support

Cons:
Drive to the engine relies on the sprague being clamped to the front sprocket or pulley.
Use of the original alternator not possible
Marginal charging in low speed situations (in my experience)
Users have reported the plastic shear pins letting go in normal operation. (extra can be added which fixes the issue).

CNW

Price £2470 ($3145) in the U.S. (As far as I'm aware there is no UK stockist, so shipping plus import duty must be factored in).

Pros:
Easy to install.
Very robust and well engineered.
Use of the original alternator.
Superb support.

Cons:
Use of original aircleaner not possible.
Rather bulky appearance.
Very long lead time currently.


Norvil

Price £2940 (including UK VAT, for the version without supplied battery )

Pros:
Very simple direct drive using what looks like a commonly used pre-engaged starter.
Comes with it's own mainshaft outrigger support and bearing (that is a big plus in my opinion).
Use of the original alternator.
Discreet appearance.

Cons:
No Sprague, but does it need one?
The installation is a BIG job.
Use of original aircleaner not possible.
Support - This is new to the market, so no feedback yet.

Images of each installed...

Alton
View attachment 111822

CNW
View attachment 111820

Norvil
View attachment 111821

Click to expand...

Good comparison, but a couple more things. With cNw, you get a complete belt drive including a new clutch basket and bearing. Most would consider that a pro, but some might not want a belt drive for some reason so a con for them. As I understand it (could be wrong), you cannot have a belt drive with Alron or Norvil so those are cons.

The cNw system is way more expensive for someone in the UK than the others. Turned around, the price difference in the US between Alton and cNw is much smaller. cNw costs about $500 more delivered, but then you get the belt drive and support in US time and with US shipping.

The Norvil kit comes complete with a belt drive. Whilst I'm not overly keen on dealing with Norvil, I do think that their set up is the best system, & will prove to be the most robust. It's the same type that BMW airheads & Hardly Dangerous use, & the same system Ark Engineering have used for their T140 & A65 kits.
Whilst most of our old clunkers don't do huge mileage, on any bike that does, the sprag no matter how well made will ultimately fail.

marshg246 said:

Good comparison, but a couple more things. With cNw, you get a complete belt drive including a new clutch basket and bearing. Most would consider that a pro, but some might not want a belt drive for some reason so a con for them. As I understand it (could be wrong), you cannot have a belt drive with Alron or Norvil so those are cons.

The cNw system is way more expensive for someone in the UK than the others. Turned around, the price difference in the US between Alton and cNw is much smaller. cNw costs about $500 more delivered, but then you get the belt drive and support in US time and with US shipping.

Click to expand...

Thanks Greg, I had forgotten that and it has been added. FYI, the Alton will work with the existing chain drive, or (as far as I'm aware) any of the aftermarket belt drive conversions.

Matchless said:

The Norvil kit comes complete with a belt drive. Whilst I'm not overly keen on dealing with Norvil, I do think that their set up is the best system, & will prove to be the most robust. It's the same type that BMW airheads & Hardly Dangerous use, & the same system Ark Engineering have used for their T140 & A65 kits.
Whilst most of our old clunkers don't do huge mileage, on any bike that does, the sprag no matter how well made will ultimately fail.

Click to expand...

OK, did not know that the Norvil system came with a belt drive. For me, that is an absolute no! I spent 8 hours trying to get their belt drive to track and promised to never touch one again. Finally got it to track, did not charge the customer, and told them they could only bring the bike back if they agreed to have that belt drive replaced. I suppose it would have been better with two gearbox adjusters, but I wasn't about to take the bike apart to do that. The cNw belt drive simply works.

I was in the primary because the belt was not tracking and making a terrible noise - that's not what it was brought in for. I will say that for all their bad press, Norvil replaced all the damaged parts for free including shipping. So, it was all new parts that would not track.

marshg246 said:

OK, did not know that the Norvil system came with a belt drive. For me, that is an absolute no! I spent 8 hours trying to get their belt drive to track and promised to never touch one again. Finally got it to track, did not charge the customer, and told them they could only bring the bike back if they agreed to have that belt drive replaced. I suppose it would have been better with two gearbox adjusters, but I wasn't about to take the bike apart to do that. The cNw belt drive simply works.

I was in the primary because the belt was not tracking and making a terrible noise - that's not what it was brought in for. I will say that for all their bad press, - Norvil replaced all the damaged parts for free including shipping. So, it was all new parts that would not track.

Click to expand...

Double gearbox adjusters are essential imo with any belt drive