BEST BIG END SHELL SETS (2015)
- Thread starter Frankie17
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HINT.....when you have your big ends ground supply to the grinder a con rod fitted with you new shells so they can measure them and grind the crank accordingly. Many years ago a friend supplied me with the drawings for two manufacturers shells(Vandervell and A.P. Norton used Vandervell shells) showing a 0.0005 inch difference which explained why with one set of shells the rod moved easily but was tighter when fitted with the other set of shells. Of course if your grinder asks why you have supplied the rod and shells go find yourself a proper competent grinder. Personally I and friends used a company in the Southampton area who would not grind a crank without being supplied with a rod fitted with the new shells. Mind you I bet all the old skilled guys in that company are now long retired or dead with skill having long flown out the window assuming the company still exists.
The LC bearing made by Glacier are a copy of the Vandervell VP2 Cast Cu/Pb overlay plated bearings, they are Sintered Cu/Pb not cast and the overlay is Tin/Pb instead of Tin/Pb/Indium. This will make they slightly less durable in a high performance engine as the fatigue strength is down by 5% or so and the lack of Indium means if the clearances are tight there is more chance of a seizure in the first 100 miles. The differences were to get round patents held by Clevite on the Cast Cu/Pb process and Vandervell had a licence to use the Cast process. LC stand for Lead Copper.
In short if you have them then use them, there is nothing too different to warrant not using them and buying NOS VP2 or the Andover modern copies.
As the for the last 20 years or so the main spares available are Al/Tn bearings with no overlay (not needed as the acids in the oil do not affect Al/Tin) and no one has raised an issue then a drop in 5% fatigue strength is nothing as Al/Tin bearing are a further 20/30% lower. Its like a dam, if you never reach the peak figure there will be no effect, so Cu/Pb only needed for racing applications in a Brit twin.
In short if you have them then use them, there is nothing too different to warrant not using them and buying NOS VP2 or the Andover modern copies.
As the for the last 20 years or so the main spares available are Al/Tn bearings with no overlay (not needed as the acids in the oil do not affect Al/Tin) and no one has raised an issue then a drop in 5% fatigue strength is nothing as Al/Tin bearing are a further 20/30% lower. Its like a dam, if you never reach the peak figure there will be no effect, so Cu/Pb only needed for racing applications in a Brit twin.
Thanks for the information Guys , the Glacier shells i have were in original packing and still wrapped in the wax paper
there seems to be an awful lot of B/S around regarding the origin & quality of shell sets these days especially for Triumph & BSA
I did note RGM were using shell sets made by King bearings are the AN ones from the same source and has anyone used them ?
there seems to be an awful lot of B/S around regarding the origin & quality of shell sets these days especially for Triumph & BSA
I did note RGM were using shell sets made by King bearings are the AN ones from the same source and has anyone used them ?
King Bearings are made in Israel, they are aftermarket specialists and do not supply the OE's, when I worked for Glacier they were not seen as a threat as they were made to a price not to a quality. The Velocette spares setup bought Glacier bearings all through the 80's,90's and 00's, all in Al/Sn and these are now running out as when Mahle took over all the aftermarket stayed with AE/Federal Mogul. These Velocette were stamped with a G in a box and used the OE eg Triumph or Norton number and were wrapped in a sticky wax paper and a plain box. With the Globalisation of Automotive suppliers and the brands out-living the factories where the brand was originally made means fresh production could be made anywhere by anybody by the brand owner.
The recent ones I have seen that look the part are Clevite 77 brands and the SRM ones, not had my hands on a Andover Norton bearing but their comment on the overlay eg 'Lead-Tin-Copper finish overlay for a longer service life and greater wear resistance' is correct but misses the point that the Indium is the best anti seize agent available but at $1000+ per kg expensive. But if you make sure the clearances are correct then the lower wear rate is useful, for a low mileage racer who wants to spend one or two laps running in the Indium is useful. They do not comment on whether the Cu/Pb is cast or sintered also which suggests sintered and equivalent to the Glacier LC.
The recent ones I have seen that look the part are Clevite 77 brands and the SRM ones, not had my hands on a Andover Norton bearing but their comment on the overlay eg 'Lead-Tin-Copper finish overlay for a longer service life and greater wear resistance' is correct but misses the point that the Indium is the best anti seize agent available but at $1000+ per kg expensive. But if you make sure the clearances are correct then the lower wear rate is useful, for a low mileage racer who wants to spend one or two laps running in the Indium is useful. They do not comment on whether the Cu/Pb is cast or sintered also which suggests sintered and equivalent to the Glacier LC.
I'm in the same boat expecting the crank will require -0.010 grind, as the drive side has some wear, while the timing side is smooth like a babies @$$.
so for street use does it matter where i get the replacement shells from? In canada i think the suppliers are just getting their stock through andover, but i have no way to verify so just a guess.
can anyone in canada make a recommendation for a bearing shell supplier providing a quality product in this regard?
thanks
i should add, the set that came out had a groove in the cap bearing , do the new sets also retain the groove? or is this obsolete?
so for street use does it matter where i get the replacement shells from? In canada i think the suppliers are just getting their stock through andover, but i have no way to verify so just a guess.
can anyone in canada make a recommendation for a bearing shell supplier providing a quality product in this regard?
thanks
i should add, the set that came out had a groove in the cap bearing , do the new sets also retain the groove? or is this obsolete?
kommando, thanks for the great explanation. If I understand you correctly, the Indium protects the lead and copper from acids and slightly tight clearances. The fatigue strength of the Al/Tin shells is 25/35% lower than for the original Vandervell VP2 cast Copper/Lead/Indium shells.
How long [miles/kilometers] should we expect the newer Al/Tin shells to last in a road going bike? If/when the shells fatigue, does the lead de-bond from the copper backing, or does the copper de-bond from the steel? How do the newer Al/Tin shells fatigue?
Do I understand correctly that the 5% drop in fatigue life is when comparing the Glacier Sintered Copper/Lead/[Indium or no Indium?] to the original Vandervell VP2 Cast Copper/Lead/Indium?
How long is a piece of string, with a properly filtered oil with good oil film strength then longer than the leaded bronze bearing in a road bike, the leaded bronze overlay plate is microns thick and once gone the lining will be attacked by the acids in the oil.
Both show in the form of cracks in the lining when fatigued, the cracks will be in the top shell from the force of combustion forcing the piston downwards. Fatigue is like a dam, if the water never reaches the top then the dam is never breached and performs 100%. Like a head bolt and its plastic limit, its only when you over torque it that the bolt is comprised and will fail. So the al/sn lower fatigue strength is not an issue if its never breached so a road bike is perfect for Al/Sn bearings.
Sintered leaded bronze is 5% weaker than any cast leaded bronze, the plating does not affect the fatigue strength so makes no difference. King are sintered, Clevite and Vandervell are cast.
In the car engine world 95% of engine bearings are Al/Sn, Leaded Bronze is used on high performance engines but has been superseded by splutter bearings in high performance diesels and only in the top bearing position. Splutter bearings have a higher fatigue strength than Leaded Bronze. So Leaded Bronze is on the way out especially with end of life no lead requirements in Europe.
There was never a groove unless its from wear, some automotive bearings fit and automotive main bearings which has a groove may have been used for repairs.
Beware of the new Hepolite shells, some batches are oversize by a thou or so, if you have the crank reground to the workshop manual the bearings will have a clearance outside top limit and you have lost a regrind. If they are the only ones available get you grinder to assemble the rods plus shells properly torqued and then grind to the measured ID
concours
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