Berliner bros records?

Ladies and gents,

if I know that a certain Commando has been imported to the US via Berliner NJ is there a possibility to find out which actual dealer it went to? Does anybody have access to their records who might be able to help? I'm having some trouble to prove that my bike was actually road registered in the early 70ies...

Best regards,


Tim

Hi Tim,

Not likely you will get a response on this. Berliner records would not show vehicle registration information? The US motorcycle shops that received machines from Berliner did the local registrations during the sale. State vehicle registration data is also typically purged after 5 years of inactivity.

Sorry

illf8ed said:

Berliner records would not show vehicle registration information?

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Oh, I wouldn't expect this. What I know now is that the bike went to the Berliners in 1970. The next step would be to find out which dealer sold it in which state. I could then adress the DMV of that state and with a bit of luck get a nice looking official reply from them that they don't have any records anymore which I can show to my local registration office here together with all the other evidence. That'll count just a little bit more than me just telling them the same without proof.

You know, German authorities like paperwork - they run on that stuff and are heavily addicted to it. Usually if the paperwork of a vehicle isn't complete, especially if the title or its German equivalent is missing (and we have barn finds as well) they'll use the 1st of July of the year of build. They check the VIN for legality with the central register in Germany, Interpol, whoever, ask you to give an affidavit that you are the legal owner and publish the VIN in an official paper with a period of six weeks for anybody to claim any rights on that Vehicle. Done. Unfortunately the charming lady who's responsible for my stuff refuses to do so and wants to see more proof. That's the best thing about German regulations - even if there is a perfectly set up process to handle things they'll make up some extra requirements just for the fun of it....;-)


Tim

Tintin said:

Unfortunately the charming lady who's responsible for my stuff refuses to do so and wants to see more proof. That's the best thing about German regulations - even if there is a perfectly set up process to handle things they'll make up some extra requirements just for the fun of it....;-)


Tim

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Damn. And to think I used to want to find myself a nice beautiful German girl. She'd be more strict than I am. :mrgreen:

The Berliner Motor Corp went out of business in 1984, they were headquarted in Hasbrouck Heights, NJ; I doubt that the records are still in existance, never mind accessible; US law requires only a 7 year record retention. If the records do/did exist they would be able to tell you what dealership your Norton was delivered to and who the initial purchaser was, the trail could end there. And, don't forget, computerization of vehicle records didn't really catch on until the mid 70's in progressive states, mid-late 80s in backwater states, your Norton records have little chance of surfacing cohesively.

Having just purchased a 1972 Norton with no geneology I have found that, even complete machines, may have been through scores of owners. I have also found that very few states in the US require a title or title search for motor vehicles older than 15 years. The key to your success is finding out how high a level your motor department needs to see documentation from to endorse your ownership; I have the same problem in MA with my 1972.

Here is my plan: I will sell my '72 to my daughter in Maine that does not require a title for machines older than 15 years, she will take the notorized bill of sale that I provide and get an insurance certificate then pay the states's excice tax then on to the DVM for plate and registration. A short time later she will cancel the registration, end the insurance and "sell" me back the Norton. At that point I will have a notorized bill of sale, an original Maine state registration certificate, endoresed to me and Massachusetts will take all that in an issue me a title, pure bull shit but it satisfies the games' rules...

You can get a US title in a number of similar ways; there are several title companies (in the US) that for a $250/$350 fee will, essentially, do the same thing. If your motor vehicle department will countenance a US title this is your out.

I wish you good luck.

RS

Hi Tim,

My '64 BSA Cyclone was imported by Hap Alzina, BSA west coast distributor. I'd like to find out what dealer originally sold it. That's where my negative comment comes from. Go with the suggestion of companies that can provide a US title.

Where in Germany are you? I spent two years ('75-'76) at Flugplatz Hahn up the hill from Kues (Bernkastle) on the Mosel River.

illf8ed said:

Where in Germany are you? I spent two years ('75-'76) at Flugplatz Hahn up the hill from Kues (Bernkastle) on the Mosel River.

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I'm in Duesseldorf but Hahn is quite well known by now with the likes of Ryanair operating from there. The Mosel area is really nice for motorcycling, the Rhineland is a bit flat.



Tim

RoadScholar said:

I doubt that the records are still in existance, never mind accessible;

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I'd be positively surprised if they are but that's the reason I'm asking. The Norton factory records are thanks to some enthusiasts so maybe the same happened there.

If the records do/did exist they would be able to tell you what dealership your Norton was delivered to and who the initial purchaser was, the trail could end there.....The key to your success is finding out how high a level your motor department needs to see documentation from to endorse your ownership;...

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Ownership is not the problem, the documents I have - bil of sale where the seller actually states that the title is lost and that no other party has an interest in the vehilce plus all the import docs - are okay for them. The problem is that they want to register it under current regulations and not the 1970 ones - which basically means they don't want to register it and are looking for a reason to do so. The bike is a resto project and badly butchered so it was obviously used. I can now provide evidence that it was imported to the US shortly after it was build. The likelihood of a bike being imported and NOT being registered is pretty small. The likelihood of a bike being sold to a private person and NOT being registered is even smaller and likelihood is what counts here in the end. I don't know at which step they'll actually give up but the more important looking papers I can provide the better it is. There has been quite a few incidences where the local authorities denied the registration in the first place and accepted it upon appeal as the appeal is dealt with on a more individual basis usually by the office chief and not by low-ranking staffer.

Here is my plan:...... pure bull shit but it satisfies the games' rules...

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It works the same way here in Germany but the thing is that our federal law states something different then what the states derive from it.

You can get a US title in a number of similar ways; there are several title companies (in the US) that for a $250/$350 fee will, essentially, do the same thing. If your motor vehicle department will countenance a US title this is your out.

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Not really: It'll most likely sport a date when it was issued, doesn't it? So how do I explain then that the title was issued long after the bike was exported? Hm.


Tim

When I first brought my Norton over from Englamd I had some difficulties with my local yokel motor vehicle people in NJ so I ended up driving it to the state motor vehicle office in Trenton, the state capital. They were much more experienced at doing such transactions and 30 minutes later I was good to go.

This wasn't Germany but possibly you could try something equivalent. Or tell your local clerk that she looks just like one of the St. Pauli Girls.

Tim,
It sounds like you will get what you want if you perservere. If you have already told them that a title doesn't exist, then produce one, I could see your credibility suffering. In Massachusetts it would almost be easier if I told them that I built the machine from scratch using a variety of cast off parts (producing thousands of reciepts---for tax purposes). In that case they would issue me a VIN and title...
It may to too late for you to produce a title, but any other people exporting a 15+ year old motorcycle from the US may benefit from securing a viable title before approaching their Motor Vehicle department.

All the best,

RS