Atlas Cam Followers

jms

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So I've now gotten the bore correct for my new pistons and just yesterday focused on the cam followers that came with the project. This is what I found. Obviously they were lightened. Space between the round hole and the larger slot is 1/8" and space between the bottom up to the round hole is 1/4". Here's the question would you use them. I'm using a standard cam
 

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So I've now gotten the bore correct for my new pistons and just yesterday focused on the cam followers that came with the project. This is what I found. Obviously they were lightened. Space between the round hole and the larger slot is 1/8" and space between the bottom up to the round hole is 1/4". Here's the question would you use them. I'm using a standard cam
Yes. No problem.
 
Here's the question would you use them. I'm using a standard cam

Nice stellite pads. That long slice out of the radiused side that runs against the tappet bore is poorly done. They might work with a bone stock cam, if you didn't thrash the engine often, or they might last forever. I wouldn't do it myself though. I'm kind of picky and prickly. Too bad AN wants $700US shipped to the US for new tappets. Far more than they are worth. Flip a coin
 
Nice stellite pads. That long slice out of the radiused side that runs against the tappet bore is poorly done. They might work with a bone stock cam, if you didn't thrash the engine often, or they might last forever. I wouldn't do it myself though. I'm kind of picky and prickly. Too bad AN wants $700US shipped to the US for new tappets. Far more than they are worth. Flip a coin
Flip a coin exactley! These must have been relatively new as there is no perceptible wear at all. Agreed that the AN price for new tappets seems rediculous. I also noticed that the new ones don’t seem to have the Stelite pad. Some sort of different wear resistant metal?
 
So I've now gotten the bore correct for my new pistons and just yesterday focused on the cam followers that came with the project. This is what I found. Obviously they were lightened. Space between the round hole and the larger slot is 1/8" and space between the bottom up to the round hole is 1/4". Here's the question would you use them. I'm using a standard cam
According to the dunstall tuning manual you need 1/4" of metal between the slot and where the stellite pad attaches
Or they break
 
If the stellite pad came off, it would be a really bad day.

AN described what they did with the new tappet design related to not using the stellite pad in one of their newsletters. I don't know where that information is on their website.

If I were to buy new tappets, I would not attempt to lighten them up. I could do it, but there is nothing to be gained by doing it on a street engine.
 
I believe the new tappets of made without any pad. The whole tappet is made of the hardened material. I had a pad break off of a follower while I was idling in my driveway prior to taking off for a ride. The bike was idling away as I zipped my jacket or put my gloves on, then all of a sudden a very loud "Tap, Tap, Tap, Tap" started. I didn't let it run more than 30 seconds and switched it off. I knew something let go so I had to look so after it cooled down I pulled the head and then the barrels. When I looked down at the cam one lobe had a chunk of something blocking my view. I had no idea WTF happened, then I looked at the underside of the barrels and one follower was clearly missing the pad... which was the chunk of metal sitting in place on top of the cam lobe so it never had a chance to shoot through the crankcase.

It was a clean delamination of the pad from the body of the tappet and the cam lobe was still perfect. Jim Comstock took pity on me and I sent him the pair of tappets with the delaminated one and he cleverly matched my tappets up to his best fitting barrel and he sent me a pair of tappets back that should (and did) fit my barrel. (smart dude) Those tappets have been in for many years and that was the last time my engine was opened up.

From asking Jim a million questions, I learned that the original tappets are "oven brazed" together. That means that they set up the body and pad with a chemical mixture between them and they move through an oven which melts the mixture bonding the pad to the body. From what I gather, there has always been a small percentage failure rate using this process. My delaminated tappet lasted 30,000 miles before it failed.

Certainly if there's any erosion at the lamination point between the body of the tappet and the stellite pad, I would wonder about that pad's ability to perform it's function. According to Jim, there isn't really a way to weld a pad back together. It would have to be oven brazed and that's a difficult process for experts who specialize in it to do properly. Hence, Andover Norton did their homework (in concert with Jim) and decided to make the entire part a one piece item to eliminate that small percentage of oven brazed parts that are produced and appear to be good, but are known to fail at a low rate, saving us from being victims of a manufacturing process that could not be made to be flawless...

here's my delaminated follower.... You can see it was hanging on by a sliver of brazing material when it broke, but the majority of the brazing had been pulverized over the 30,000 miles that it functioned properly before breaking.

broken lifter1.jpg
 
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I believe the new tappets of made without any pad. The whole tappet is made of the hardened material. I had a pad break off of a follower while I was idling in my driveway prior to taking off for a ride. The bike was idling away as I zipped my jacket or put my gloves on, then all of a sudden a very loud "Tap, Tap, Tap, Tap" started. I didn't let it run more than 30 seconds and switched it off. I knew something let go so I had to look so after it cooled down I pulled the head and then the barrels. When I looked down at the cam one lobe had a chunk of something blocking my view. I had no idea WTF happened, then I looked at the underside of the barrels and one follower was clearly missing the pad... which was the chunk of metal sitting in place on top of the cam lobe so it never had a chance to shoot through the crankcase.

It was a clean delamination of the pad from the body of the tappet and the cam lobe was still perfect. Jim Comstock took pity on me and I sent him the pair of tappets with the delaminated one and he cleverly matched my tappets up to his best fitting barrel and he sent me a pair of tappets back that should (and did) fit my barrel. (smart dude) Those tappets have been in for many years and that was the last time my engine was opened up.

From asking Jim a million questions, I learned that the original tappets are "oven brazed" together. That means that they set up the body and pad with a chemical mixture between them and they move through an oven which melts the mixture bonding the pad to the body. From what I gather, there has always been a small percentage failure rate using this process. My delaminated tappet lasted 30,000 miles before it failed.

Certainly if there's any erosion at the lamination point between the body of the tappet and the stellite pad, I would wonder about that pad's ability to perform it's function. According to Jim, there isn't really a way to weld a pad back together. It would have to be oven brazed and that's a difficult process for experts who specialize in it to do properly. Hence, Andover Norton did their homework (in concert with Jim) and decided to make the entire part a one piece item to eliminate that small percentage of oven brazed parts that are produced and appear to be good, but are known to fail at a low rate, saving us from being victims of a manufacturing process that could not be made to be flawless...

here's my delaminated follower.... You can see it was hanging on by a sliver of brazing material when it broke, but the majority of the brazing had been pulverized over the 30,000 miles that it functioned properly before breaking.

View attachment 116738
Love this Forum. Who knew! Thanks for a very informative answer. Doesn't sound like they should be used. Here's the next question. Can a one piece tappet be resurfaced if worn?
 
Love this Forum. Who knew! Thanks for a very informative answer. Doesn't sound like they should be used. Here's the next question. Can a one piece tappet be resurfaced if worn?
Well, I think it's a crap shoot if you decide to use them. Perhaps the fact that they were used and were still visually intact means that they at least passed a certain amount of miles being used in there current condition. That might make me think they are OK for now...

I also think the fact that AN did not use the "oven brazed" design says more about their desire to have a flawless replacement part to sell than it does about your tappets in particular. Prior to mine failing I was not aware of the failure rate of the original parts, nor did I wonder about them, nor any idea of how they were made. It was a much more experienced person (Jim) who let us all know about the failures he witnessed over the years that pointed to a part that was known to occasionally fail.

I'd probably use them... but I'm a gambler... and although I am not an auto mechanic by profession, I do a lot of my own mechanical rebuilding and repair, so I'm a bit of a fearless person in that regard. If the cam lobes are good and you know which lifter goes with which lobe, I'd visually inspect them for cracks at the brazing joint and I'd use them if they were solidly joined...
 
They may have been modified after they were used and never actually run in the engine if they were in a box of loose parts, and not taken out of the tappet bores during engine disassembly. Just saying
 
Love this Forum. Who knew! Thanks for a very informative answer. Doesn't sound like they should be used. Here's the next question. Can a one piece tappet be resurfaced if worn?
The new one piece tappets from AN are made out of a pretty unique material and were the result of extensive work, they make big claims about their durability, best to email AN for the full info.
 
Spoke with Ashley at AN. New tappets are 74% Cobalt and 24% Chromium. Not sure what the other 2% is
 
So here’s the next question that has come into focus. Apparently Atlas and Commando cam followers are different in that the Atlas Stelite pads are champhered and Commandos are flat. What happens when you use a Commando lifter in an Atlas with a standard Atlas cam?
 
So here’s the next question that has come into focus. Apparently Atlas and Commando cam followers are different in that the Atlas Stelite pads are champhered and Commandos are flat. What happens when you use a Commando lifter in an Atlas with a standard Atlas cam?
It won't make any difference. The cam doesn't hit the lifter until rotated in past the chamfered edge based on looking at the witness marks on my old stock lifters. Those chamfered edges are so poorly machined they would start flattening a cam in a few minutes if the cam hit them.

I'm not sure why Norton chamfered the lifters in the first place unless it helped with oiling on the very early twins. Somebody here will know or at least have a good story about the chamfered edge. :)
 
If by chamfered you mean they have a curved surface against the cam instead of the flat Commando type then the flat followers will open the valves sooner and close them later. Triumph used 3/4" radius curve on their cooking models and for the sporty T120 they used 1 1/8" radius.
 
The chamfer shown on P11 flat lifters or tappets. Same as Atlas more or less.
Atlas Cam Followers


I ran these with both the stock P11 cam and later with a 2S cam.
 
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My guess was that they ground the chamfer in the early lifters as a way to inspect the oven brazed bond beyond the outer edge of the joint to see if there was good bonding without voids... As Schwany said, there's no contact near the edge with a flat lifter so it has no purpose in regards to the contact area. Once Norton got to making the commando, they stopped grinding the chamfer maybe because it was just extra work and they felt reasonably comfortable with their oven brazing process.... At least that's my guess.
 
It won't make any difference. The cam doesn't hit the lifter until rotated in past the chamfered edge based on looking at the witness marks on my old stock lifters. Those chamfered edges are so poorly machined they would start flattening a cam in a few minutes if the cam hit them.

I'm not sure why Norton chamfered the lifters in the first place unless it helped with oiling on the very early twins. Somebody here will know or at least have a good story about the chamfered edge. :)
Schwany
Interesting that they were chamfered for no real apparent reason, Glad to hear that the Commando ones work. Is there a summary of the different cams available with lift values? I'm aware that the standard Atlas cam had a lift of .330. The cam I have measures .342. Not sure what it is though
 
My guess was that they ground the chamfer in the early lifters as a way to inspect the oven brazed bond beyond the outer edge of the joint to see if there was good bonding without voids... As Schwany said, there's no contact near the edge with a flat lifter so it has no purpose in regards to the contact area. Once Norton got to making the commando, they stopped grinding the chamfer maybe because it was just extra work and they felt reasonably comfortable with their oven brazing process.... At least that's my guess.
Yup mine look like these with the caveat of being extremely lightened
 
Schwany
Interesting that they were chamfered for no real apparent reason, Glad to hear that the Commando ones work. Is there a summary of the different cams available with lift values? I'm aware that the standard Atlas cam had a lift of .330. The cam I have measures .342. Not sure what it is though
There is an old list I'm aware of Old Britts put together. Google Norton stock cam profiles. You'll get hits that lead back here and go to other places.

.342/.342 is a really mild cam and should work well on the street.

I can't remember the rules about cams and lifters for Nortons. Might be you can use new lifters with old cams, but not old lifters with new cams. My rule is replace both the cam and lifters and don't overthink it. ;)
 
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