Anybody gone down this road with your Norton rims?

if you do get a flat with this system and the tyre bead to rim contact breaks the only way to re inflate and to renew seal is with a big compressor which delivers air volume quickly
the small roadside compressors are ok to re inflate a seated tyre but often wont push enough volume to actually re seat the tyre even with valve core removed it often requires a large blast of air
to overcome leaks between tyre bead and rim with tubeless tyres

bear in mind stock rims are not designed to retain bead contact as well as tubeless rims

I converted my Triumph T120 to a tubeless setup using 3M Extreme Sealing tape almost 3 years ago. Works great, no more leakage than normal. Did it on the Triumph because it is used for touring and there is no way to repair a tire on the road, they are simply too hard to get off the rim by hand. The Norton tires are a piece of cake to spoon off and on so no worries doing a roadside repair. As noted above, flats have become a rarity. Hope I didn't just jinx myself!

Having experienced lots of flats, blow outs, tread de laminations on tubeless automotive rims, the thought of experiencing this on a
converted tube type, non safety bead rim is terrifying. No thank you, I'll pass.

Edited.. I have had several flats on MC's, tube and tubeless, thank goodness the tire stayed on the rim.

My $.02 I am a professional bicycle mechanic and bicycle tubeless has been around for about 15 years. The first version was developed by 2 French companies, Mavic and Hutchinson. It was called UST and had a very specific tire and rim interface. The rims required the spokes and nipples to not penetrate through to the inside of the rim. It was essentially like a motorcycle mag wheel in that aspect. It was VERY strong and the tires were heavier than a tubed tire. The addition of a liquid latex sealant was to fill small holes as they happened. It was very good but heavy and difficult to work with. Then the real revolution happened and Tubeless Ready was born. That's basically what we have here. A TR rim that has its seam sealed up in manufacturing and a Tubeless Ready hook inside the rim that holds onto the TR bead of a TR tire. The bed of the rim is taped with light tubeless tape. These tires are heavier than tubed tires but lighter than UST. They require the sealant to help seal the tire and defeat punctures.

Where am I going with this? Here's the takeaway:

The bicycle industry has spent millions developing tubeless systems. While you CAN set up a non-tubeless rim with a Tubeless tire (or a non TR tire if you're lucky) but is it reliable? Not really. We call it "ghetto tubeless". I won't do it in my shop. Without the safety of a tire and rim combo that is designed to stick together without a tube behind it I do not feel the benefits of a more supple ride and reduced weight are worth it. On a motorcycle add highway speeds to that. I'd probably do it on a dirt bike with one of the kits out there but unlikely on a moto, at least until some tire/rim standard comes out. Tempting but having personally ripped mountain bike tires off the rim while riding I don't think I could ever get the thought out of the back of my mind.

Thanks for listening.

Well that surely was convincing!

With tubes, there is always the potential for " rapid deflation"
Recently, a clubmate was killed when his tube blew out or was severely punctured by a road hazard. No one knows for sure but the tube is in tatters. He was riding with others and they verify that the blowout/ripout caused him to lose control.
Another clubmate in the UK, had a similar accident in 2019. He and his wife survived, although they were severely injured and likely won't ride again.
With tubeless type tires the occurrence of blowouts and other forms of rapid deflation at speed is very rare, that's the main reason tubeless tires are considered safer than tube type.
I'm not completely sold on the Outex System, but I am considering using it.
Yet another clubmate has used in the bike he tours on and has had no issues in five years of use.
Air leakage over time is a fraction of what it was with tubes in.
Additionally if one goes to the Outex system, you could also run tire sealant/balancer like Ride-on.
I use this stuff on my modern bikes with tubeless tires.
It can also be installed in a tube, but it is far less effective on a tube. It would not seal a big puncture on a tube. The balancing feature works great.



Glen

Like has been suggested before - tubeless rims have a very specific bead profile and fit (and construction for that matter) and while you may be able to get the system to seal initially, I would be concerned over the long term durability, as well as its tolerance to variances in tire pressure, dirt/corrosion in the bead area, tire separating from the rim in a catastrophic pressure loss etc. I can break the bead of my Norton's wheels with my hands, while on tubeless tired bikes, I have to use a machine to break the beads...

Personally, I just don't see the benefits outweighing the risks. If you are thinking of doing this, proceed with caution. It may not only be you that gets hurt if things don't go as planned.

My $0.02.

I had a rear tyre let go at about 70mph two up...scary. I tried to fix it with Finelec...it was weeks before I managed to get all the goo off the spokes as it fired out of all the nipple holes then ran down them. The tube was shredded.

That's the thing we tend to forget- we depend on those skimpy tubes to keep the tire in place. When the tube is ruptured and deflates rapidly, as in the two accidents I mentioned, it's a very serious situation.


Glen

Ive had 4 punctures on my modern Bonneville, two within 24 hrs of each other. The first was on my very first multiday trip. Got it to a cycle shop (honda) and they fitted a new tube that was a bit oversized. It was flat again hours later. Had to be hauled home to a proper Triumph specialist shop.

Next two happened within milliseconds of each other. Both punctured when a copper pulled a spike strip across the highway I was travelling on at 100kph. Was 10 hrs from home at the time.

Roadside repairs on the bonneville are problematic as you'd need a large pair of wrenches/socket ratchet etc just to remove wheels. Ive replace tires on front at home with marginal struggle, but the rear is much harder to manage. Generally I give up and take rim to a shop.

Regarding inflation device, I typically carry a compact bicycle hand pump on long motorbike rides. It is vert easy to use for top ups and can do a flat tire with added time. No biggie.

YING said:

Tom,
Are you going to try this out?

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I was thinking of doing it on one of my bikes. I just don't know enough about this yet to bite the bullet. That second video that Chaztuna showed might be worth a try. One thing that I have found, is some under the rim tape corrosion in the nipple area from water ingress when riding in the rain with my tubed tire system. Probably electrolysis corrosion from the dissimilar metals. (Alloy rim/Chrome plated brass nipples/ SS spokes). This I have found with the tire off and during inspecting the tube/spokes/bearings/disk brake and general once over for condition of the build. I then go at it with polishing the rim and spoke cleaning before mounting the new tire. I am not sure if this 3M sealant would mask or prevent the corrosion from happening.
Cheers,
Tom

Are there any aftermarket rims for our Nortons that have the safety bead profile or, even better, already fully spoke sealed, for tubeless rubber? That would be the best option for our old bikes.

Derek Wilson said:

Like has been suggested before - tubeless rims have a very specific bead profile and fit (and construction for that matter) and while you may be able to get the system to seal initially, I would be concerned over the long term durability, as well as its tolerance to variances in tire pressure, dirt/corrosion in the bead area, tire separating from the rim in a catastrophic pressure loss etc. I can break the bead of my Norton's wheels with my hands, while on tubeless tired bikes, I have to use a machine to break the beads...

Personally, I just don't see the benefits outweighing the risks. If you are thinking of doing this, proceed with caution. It may not only be you that gets hurt if things don't go as planned.

My $0.02.

Click to expand...

Yes Derek,

I agree. That was one of my concerns.
Tom

Tornado said:

Are there any aftermarket rims for our Nortons that have the safety bead profile or, even better, already fully spoke sealed, for tubeless rubber? That would be the best option for our old bikes.

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There are these.
9lbs each, tubeless and very strong.
Not to everyone's taste, I'm sure!

worntorn said:

There are these.
Not to everyone's taste, I'm sure!

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I like the look!!! ... but I also have a similar "tasteless" modification... No Spokes, No tubes, lightweight, and a total bastardization of all things norton...

o0norton0o said:

I like the look!!! ... but I also have a similar "tasteless" modification... No Spokes, No tubes, lightweight, and a total bastardization of all things norton...

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Two hundred Norton lined up in a field and You would know it was uniquely yours. That is the beauty of the Norton and how we all just mod it to our liking. Purpose built. Nothing wrong with that... unless you are concours. If your ride it there instead of a trailer queen then that makes it all the more special.
Cheers,
T

Tornado said:

Are there any aftermarket rims for our Nortons that have the safety bead profile or, even better, already fully spoke sealed, for tubeless rubber? That would be the best option for our old bikes.

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This would be my question also. I've been thinking about this but have yet to fully research the answer.
I found out so far that supposedly the "WM" designation indicates a rim without the safety bead profile that one would want for mounting a tubelsss tire, and that rims with the tubeless bead in the cross section are designated by the preface "MT". I was thinking of calling Buchanan's and asking them if there's any such thing as an "MT-2.50x19" spoke rim, which is the size I would be after personally.

Tubeless tires deflate slowly when suffering a simple puncture (which is safer), and can be plugged an re-inflated easily. I have done it several times over the years on road trips with other bikes with a readily available kit that includes plugs, a plug insertion tool, and CO2 cartridges with a connector to refill.

I have converted many Bicycle Carbon wheels to tubeless, but it's only safe to do so if the rims are designed for tubeless. On a bicycle, it's what Sjordan said, UST standard which has a hook on the inside edge of the rim and other differences.
I don't see a problem with this if the Rims on our Nortons are Tubeless compatible, you would need to find this out from the rim manufacturer. I definitely wouldn't be using electrical tape over the spoke holes as it's not strong enough and will let go.
Use rime tape designed for bicycles and much higher pressures, it's strong light & cheap, you can get it from 16mm to 35mm in width ( eBay search "Tubeless Rim Tape"). Make sure the rim has a spotless dry surface before applying the rim tape on, and put several layers of tape on. I would also put 100mls of sealant in there for insurance.

Tornado said:

Are there any aftermarket rims for our Nortons that have the safety bead profile or, even better, already fully spoke sealed, for tubeless rubber? That would be the best option for our old bikes.

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The Borrani WM-4 rims I run have the safety bead profile.Not fun to break the bead when changing tires.
Still looking for a good bead breaker.

Running a tubeless tire on an old non-tubeless rim is pretty risky as the bead retention profile isn't meant to hold a deflating tire. The bead seat on an old rim is level with the rim vertical and on a tubeless-type rim, there's a slight angle towards the axle to keep a low tire from having catastrophic air loss and coming off the rim. I'm sure there are some modern spoke rims available that have the proper profile if you want to run a tubeless tire safely.