Any questions on the Alton starter ?

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andychain said:
If this is the French starter ask him if the chains I gave him at Stafford work.

I have already supplied replacements to folks in UK and some feedback would be good.

Andy
Click to expand...

Hervé left today, but he told me he met someone with better chains at the Stafford show, he said the chains were used in some car (Audi??) engine and were both beefier AND lighter, a clear case of having your cake and eating it too :D

Jean
 
grayluders said:
Perhaps a bit late - would a kit be adaptable or foreseen for a Maney (street!) belt drive with cutaway inner primary for a gearbox outrigger?
Suspect the answer is not too hard to guess - but might be good to have in the searchable archives . . .
Thanks,
GL
Click to expand...

Hervé told me there were too many variables in the different belt drives, the most notable being belt width, if your belt is wider than 30mm, there is a good chance it will not fit. Some suppliers are now going with 20mm wide belts which are stronger than the older wider belts. Hervé told me they are thinking of coming out with their own belt drive kit which of course will be fully compatible with their starter kit, but that is not something that will be available next week so if you really want a starter, get one now, run with the triplex primary chain while Alton comes up with a belt kit :D

Jean
 
Jeandr said:
swooshdave said:
Will the Alton work with comnoz MSD ignition system? :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Don't know, why not order one of each and let us know :lol:

Jean
Click to expand...

Or better yet have Alton send Jim a starter. If anyone can analyze a Norton product it's going to be him.
 
Why didnt Herve use the chains????????

I know from other models of bike that the chains stretch quickly.

Maybe it is because some companies do not like dealing with an old grey haired
English guy that is English. I have the same problem with others but thankfully
not Aston Martin, Ginetta, Nicolson McLaren and many other race engine companies.

The chains I propose are from several engines, Audi is one, but try to get them in
lengths other than those made at factory is a major problem but one that I can help with.

As a footnote I have already set my stall out on the forum and am here to advise on chain
issues, it took years to get the trust of Laverda owners and I would like to think my 40 years
experience in the chain industry would be a good starting point. The only reason I put myself
on here was that I know there are problems with chain, basically dealers sell more on profit
motive than quality and bikers, in the main, dont know what they are getting.

Andy
 
andychain said:
Why didnt Herve use the chains????????

I know from other models of bike that the chains stretch quickly.

Maybe it is because some companies do not like dealing with an old grey haired
English guy that is English. I have the same problem with others but thankfully
not Aston Martin, Ginetta, Nicolson McLaren and many other race engine companies.

The chains I propose are from several engines, Audi is one, but try to get them in
lengths other than those made at factory is a major problem but one that I can help with.

As a footnote I have already set my stall out on the forum and am here to advise on chain
issues, it took years to get the trust of Laverda owners and I would like to think my 40 years
experience in the chain industry would be a good starting point. The only reason I put myself
on here was that I know there are problems with chain, basically dealers sell more on profit
motive than quality and bikers, in the main, dont know what they are getting.

Andy
Click to expand...

I will send him an e-mail and ask, no use speculating on anything.

Jean

ranton /Right now my main computer, the one with all my mail contacts is down, the nice 240Gb SSD drive, only 4 months old is dead as a doornail, first time in many many years I will lose data :roll: I will cost me an additional drive to make a RAID partition and hours and hours to reinstall everything AND get the programs I paid for to work since they will all beleive I am trying to rip them off and install them on a second computer... :x /rant off
 
Ibex,

I would doubt cost is an issue when it comes to realiability.

Stafford was in April and I had heard of issues back then.

I gave them samples and have not even had an enquiry or
any form of contact. I will continue
selling chains for those with problems but it just makes me wonder.

Andy
 
andychain said:
Ibex,

I would doubt cost is an issue when it comes to realiability.

Stafford was in April and I had heard of issues back then.

I gave them samples and have not even had an enquiry or
any form of contact. I will continue
selling chains for those with problems but it just makes me wonder.

Andy
Click to expand...

Andy,

It takes time to change a production run, I am speculating, but it may just be that they had a stock of chains already made for the kits they were putting together. Hervé did tell me he was really impressed with the quality of your chains, so don't think they forgot about you, because that is not the case.

Jean
 
Jean I understand, but it makes marketing a problem, as I have found with Lambretta chain.

In the beginning I approach manufacturers, dealers and shops, with little or no success. I then
proceed with the end user where my products are very well received and liked. At this point
the manufacturers etc decide they want some of this but the price level is set where there is
no margin for the dealers.

As for Alton I can see the same thing happening. I approached them as I had identified an issue
and as you say they are impressed by the chain. I have now sold these into the open market so
the price is set. With most dealers using a 100% mark up and mine being very very much lower
I can see a problem.

As a point of interest most people have no idea of what is available in the way of chains and even
where there are problems, such as with the T160, people are reluctant to take advice. I do not have
knowledge of all bikes however I know a bit about chain and my advice is free to all.

Andy
 
Jean
I bought an Alton kit in August last year (number 2-40A). This is the first I heard about starter chain issues. Do you know if I have an earlier suspect chain or would I have a later "OK" one?
David
 
pdl999 said:
Jean
I bought an Alton kit in August last year (number 2-40A). This is the first I heard about starter chain issues. Do you know if I have an earlier suspect chain or would I have a later "OK" one?
David
Click to expand...

I never heard it mentionned by Hervé that they had chain issues, so don't worry about it. When he talked to me about the chains sold by Andy, he just told me they were half the weight of the ones Alton puts in the kit and since they were originaly used driving the overhead cams in cars, they should last longer.

If someone has a problem with chain stretch, it could be because the engine the starter is used on is a hopped up high compression powerhouse.

The chain only spins when the starter is engaged, so wear or lubrication should not pose any issues.

Jean
 
Lets put this subject to bed.

The chain I proposed to Alton were actually bigger than the current one used and about 30% heavier.

The pin is 34% bigger and there are no rollers to fail. Yes they are automotive cam chains and used
in Audis. The ref is G67HP. Typically automotive are of a higher quality than industrial. The problem
being that most people cant tell the difference.

Regarding wear, in this sort of application once the chain is moving there will be no issue with it,
indeed the faster it spins the better. However the torque involved in getting an old bike engine
to turn over is high, differing between twins and singles. It is the fraction of a second when the
button is pressed where the wear takes place. Slack in a chain is no big deal but if a chain starts
slack and then gets slacker in a reasonably short period of time then this is down to wear.

Alton get keep using the current chains and I will keep supplying the iwis big pinned chains to those
who want them, 2 going out to OZ on Monday. Everybody happy.

Andy
 
andychain said:
The chain I proposed to Alton were actually bigger than the current one used and about 30% heavier.
The pin is 34% bigger and there are no rollers to fail.
Click to expand...

The size of your chain (more specific the width) could be the reason Alton keeps on using their own chain. It is a very tight fit for the chain in between the crank pulley (belt drive) and the steady plate (holding the stator and double gear). In fact I had to turn out the pulley (to move it towards the crankcase) to free the starter chain from the belt.
 
I have supplied for other makes maybe it could be a Norton problem, but I have sold
chains for Nortons.............any feedback would be good.

Andy

PS The kits I saw at Stafford had no width issues.
 
Have now fitted Andy's Iwis chain to my 850 which has a chain primary drive. New chain has a much more substantial look about it and I doubt that it will stretch like the original; I have only started the engine once as a test and time will tell about the durability.
The Iwis is a little wider and deeper than the original and some fettling was required to fit it (note for Americans: I can't understand you either!).
Alton starter system has been altered in a number of ways and so what affected mine may be different for others.
The inner chaincase front boss where the front stator plate fixing screw locates had very little clearance for the chain and so a sliver needed to be removed to fit the Iwis.
Other problem is that the chain may contact the stator plate as it approaches the small sprocket. Mine has a plate which ends near the sprocket unlike the longer earlier version as shown on their website. Also, I have a new version of the double gear/drive spindle and there were clearance issues both because of the depth and width of the Iwis (might not be a problem with the earlier one with the 'gear into resin' inner end). Solved this by replacing supplied washer with two new ones with slightly smaller OD and snug fitting ID. Then, of course, I had to fit washers under the three stator plate fixing points to ensure that the spindle would be free to revolve and that the stator would remain true to the rotor. These shims were only about 1mm thick. Used threadlock on the stator fixings.
I am using Andy's duplex Mercedes timing chain for the primary drive and have fitted it on the inboard teeth. When I had a triplex chain on I noticed that it was quite close to the original starter chain so there could also be an issue there, but I cannot remember the exact clearance; no problem with the duplex.
Despite the adjustments being needed, I think that the Iwis is worth fitting if you don't like the stretch of the original chain. Iwis has, in my opinion, just the right amount of free play (less than the original which seemed to have too much free play even when new).
If you have read all this and are still awake, any questions?
Richard
 
For those interested in seeing the differences in not only the starter chain but also
the primary, I will be at Popham Megameet next Sunday 18th.

Even if you dont want to look at chain it is a bloody good show with many dealers
and jumblers.....only £15 for as much space as you want.

Andy
 
Ibex said:
I am using Andy's duplex Mercedes timing chain for the primary drive
Click to expand...

Why did you use a duplex timing chain instead of the triple row chain :?: :?:
 
Most of the triplex chains on the market are made to a price not a quality, something the Laverda owners found
out many years ago.

There is a duplex chain made by iwis for diesel engines, I stress diesel that will more then do the job. See my
previous post on the forum. Technically there are very good reasons not to use a triplex but far too boring for here.

Anybody is welcome to see me at a show and I will gladly point out the reasons. Laverdas have used the Merc duplex
for years and I have supplied one for a conversion on a T160 which has done 10 of thousands of miles.

The duplex Merc chain is a well engineered product and although it has well received in Holland and Belgium with
a couple of exceptions the UK owners have shunned it. One guy even purchased one at Kempton and returned it
for a triplex because "his engine builder would not fit it". He obviously had more than my 40 years experience in
the chain industry.

I look forward to meeting some of you at shows.

Andy
 
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