Another Ride Spoiled...

Set out for a joy ride today after last time's good performance. She fired right up, no fiddling needed with the idle or pilots. Headed to local mountain climb. Got about half way up before hearing new high pitched rattle that appeared at higher rpm. Noticed port side header wobbling about and sure enough the exhaust collar had come loose. Pulled off the mountain road on to a narrow strip of soft shoulder beside a steep drop. Went on a scavenger hunt for bits of solid wood and good hefty rock. Used these to pound the collar back as snug as possible. Before anyone has a cow, my collars are special, one off, custom, unobtanium, bastardized, fugly red-headed, left-handed, step children, so nothing to loose appearance-wise
Got the problem side pretty tight with successive tangential bashes. Started up and turned for home. Well, after only a few minutes I could see the collar rotating. Stopped up and tried again, this time jamming bits of sticks 'tween collar fins & head fins. This got me to a shopping plaza where I went on a new hunt for something more like seizing wire. Found some at the garden center of a supermarket and the nice old lady at the counter wouldn't take any wampum for the three thin strands of flower arranging wire. Got the collar re-snugged with more bashes (I'd carried my stone and wood implements down with me ;-) and wrapped the wire to the rocker cover nut. This held the rest of the 20 minute ride home.

Now to sort it proper. Previously I've tried high temp copper type silicone sealant on the threads and sealing ring. Seemed to work but was thinking it was of little benefit after doing future snug ups as it would break any adhesion that was going on. So I did not use it last time I put these on...just went with the steel sealing rings and torqued home when at operating temperature. It's been 500 or so miles since that fitting without problem. I assume any kind of Locktite product won't help at the high temps? What about muffler "cement" which I believe is ceramic based? Too risky to remove in future? Just go with R.F.T. and then seizing wire for good insurance?

Shouldn’t need any gluing. Tighten them when hot. And with the engine running (kinda impact wrench effect).
And def re do a few times in the first few hundred miles, until they no longer take a nipping up. And they should stay put.

I've got mine wired down with copper wire... Drilled a small hole in the fins on each side many years ago and have wired them ever since because no matter what or how tight they were they always backed out. Unlike some the small holes and unsightly bit of wire have not made me lose sleep just so long as the nuts are held fast.

May just need regular tightens, until it sits where it's happy long term.

My LH header collar was loose. I tightened it when hot, tried it again next ride and it tightened further. Repeated several more times until it stopped needing it and I bent the lock washer tangs back over. In all it went a further 1/3 of a turn from the first tightening, over half a dozen rides, 5 or 600 miles. Been fine for the last 500 miles. I used a C-spanner and didn't resort to the hammer. Was tempted at one point though...! Idles better since I tightened it up.

Being a Mk3, I also loosened the balance pipe each time, before tightening the collar, in case it stressed the welds and Allen bolts too much.

Turn it into a Triumph header setup. Get some spigots made and a custom exhaust is all it takes. Never gets loose. Kidding, but it does work.



You could use a pair of springs on each collar and get it to stay in place. Maybe, never tried it.

Fast Eddie said:

Shouldn’t need any gluing. Tighten them when hot. And with the engine running (kinda impact wrench effect).
And def re do a few times in the first few hundred miles, until they no longer take a nipping up. And they should stay put.

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+1 on this, it has always worked on peashooters for me.

My 2EX1 exhaust has this solution, and they have never come loose.

gortnipper said:

+1 on this, it has always worked on peashooters for me.

My 2EX1 exhaust has this solution, and they have never come loose.

Exhaust Nut Option

Due to the high mounting of my race bike pipes and being stubborn about using standard exhaust nuts with lockwire, a friend had had his modified by an engineer friend for his Roadster in the past so I decided to copy this option as it just utilises all the standard components I found a new set...

www.accessnorton.com

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Thx for the linked thread. Interesting to drill the wider "fin" on the rose nut for a set screw going on to the head flange. How does that actually prevent rotation, just by placing some amount of tension on the rose against the head? My roses only have a single wide fin so likely not going to be sufficient for this effect I guess?

Tornado said:

Thx for the linked thread. Interesting to drill the wider "fin" on the rose nut for a set screw going on to the head flange. How does that actually prevent rotation, just by placing some amount of tension on the rose against the head? My roses only have a single wide fin so likely not going to be sufficient for this effect I guess?

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Yes, once you tighten it cold, heat it up around the block and then put it up on center stand (stand on it with one foot to keep the bike in place) and rev it up a bit 2500 or so and tighten more. A second set of hands may help. Then tighten down the grub screws - three of them keep the pressure even around the circumference.

I had single wide fin roses for a long time, and they were prone to vibrate loose but were better with the tighten hot method. Try tapping it out - it cant hurt and may work.

Sorry to be a naysayer, but the threads in the head are most likely knackered and in need of intervention. Traveling with rocks and sticks is no way to live.

Safety wire - used it there since my original back-in-the-day Commando. You can either drill a hole in a fin or just run the wire around the lower nut on the exhaust valve cover.

I follow the old brittbike saying, "Use safety wire sparingly... only on the parts you wish to keep!"

As Fast Eddie already wrote, you have to keep after the exhaust nuts until they stop taking torque. I use the ones pictured below:



I carry the pin wrench in my backpack and check every time I stop from the time of commissioning for 3 to 5 heat cycles and when I get back to the shop; I do carry the wrench as part of my kit even after it appears the nuts are set. And, yes, for the stainless steel naysayers, I use an anti seize compound.

Best.

Unfortunately I am stuck with what's on there now as the head ports are bored out oversized and left hand threaded. Either need fresh roses custom made or some kind of adaptor made for LH threading into exisitng ports and having standard RH inside thread to take off the shelf roses.

Tornado said:

Unfortunately I am stuck with what's on there now as the head ports are bored out oversized and left hand threaded. Either need fresh roses custom made or some kind of adaptor made for LH threading into exisitng ports and having standard RH inside thread to take off the shelf roses.

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Then I would do the tighten when hot method and see ho that goes.

If it still loosens, drill a rose and head fin after tightening again and wire it.

If that doesn't work drill ad tap the wide fin.

Else, send the head for bronze inserts and get some CNW roses.

Tornado said:

Unfortunately I am stuck with what's on there now as the head ports are bored out oversized and left hand threaded. Either need fresh roses custom made or some kind of adaptor made for LH threading into existing ports and having standard RH inside thread to take off the shelf roses.

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Would it be worth having new sleeves welded in? Not cheap, but it would seriously bug me to have what you have.

Looks like RFT is holding good. I'm out on a multi hour ride and am carrying the BFH and BF-rose spanner, gave both sides a couple of wallops while hot and running, they both moved a wee bit further. No sign of loosening after some hours on road.

Tornado said:

Looks like RFT is holding good. I'm out on a multi hour ride and am carrying the BFH and BF-rose spanner, gave both sides a couple of wallops while hot and running, they both moved a wee bit further. No sign of loosening after some hours on road.

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Silicone ( Copper High temp. ) is all I've ever used , by Permatex. It never sets , so you can re-tighten hot ( as you should ) , without fear of breaking any initial bonding , because it doesn't . I've never had an exhaust nut back off after 40 years of usage since the product came out , now with stated improvements ( Ultra ) . It's like a high temp thread lubricant and protector .

Done like this, Or in your case a little different because of the lefthand thread, it stops any undoing in its tracks. It effectively 'live loads' the exhaust rose as it has a constant tightening torque on the nuts. Bonus when coming to sell the bike you can remove the loops and spring and 'viola' back to standard, no drilled fins (ugh!) or owt else like that!

As I was out of HT RTV, I used ordinary silicone on three bikes. Seems it burnt but still sealed well. I wouldd never use copper wire, only SS wire for securing.

dobba99 said:

Done like this, Or in your case a little different because of the lefthand thread, it stops any undoing in its tracks. It effectively 'live loads' the exhaust rose as it has a constant tightening torque on the nuts. Bonus when coming to sell the bike you can remove the loops and spring and 'viola' back to standard, no drilled fins (ugh!) or owt else like that!

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Where can that hooked spring. Be acquired?

Hooked sprigs are common on modern bike exhaust systems. Have them on both the Ninja after market system and the RG250. If you prefer old school springs you can find them on drum brake shoes.