An Opinion
- Thread starter acotrel
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This should be in 'everything else'.
You only have to see, on TV, the current crop of superbikes zipping between the houses to know that quote is BS.
At those speeds, one mistake is death. And often is, sadly.
It was a fairly demanding course back in 1907 when it all began even.
And judging by the 100+ riders who have died in the attempt over the years, it still is.
It was (almost) funny when some of the current crop of MotoGP pilots had a look last year at the track.
When asked if they wanted to race there, they all, politely, said NO.
That place will always be special, in terms of the super committment required.
You only have to see, on TV, the current crop of superbikes zipping between the houses to know that quote is BS.
At those speeds, one mistake is death. And often is, sadly.
It was a fairly demanding course back in 1907 when it all began even.
And judging by the 100+ riders who have died in the attempt over the years, it still is.
It was (almost) funny when some of the current crop of MotoGP pilots had a look last year at the track.
When asked if they wanted to race there, they all, politely, said NO.
That place will always be special, in terms of the super committment required.
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With what little I know I must agree, modern feats don't top the feat of the above. By Far Most the time gained by moderns is pure horse power in the straights so this implies Manx'd out ragged edge of life and death hi speeds held deep into the worst turns and getting away with it. Tires were not as good neither so extra points added on top to my mind. Most exciting thing to do with a motorcycle between you legs is carry excessive speed into turns to still come out ahead of those with more go juice, they just can't use-put down- until leaving the turns.
Mike Hailwood always said that his secret of success at the Island was Slow into the corners, Fast out.
This distinguished him from all the crashers.
But carrying speed in the corners is part of it.
Why just limit this to a Manx though ?
It took 50 years of development to first get a bike around the IoM course at an average 100 mph.
Bob McIntyre did it first, in 1957 on a Gilera 4 - which he had helped to design.
Took a while longer before a Manx did it.
You could argue it was tire development that allowed this.
And the riders having bigger and bigger gonads....
Peeling off for a fast corner before you can see it takes a certain amount of perfect memory.
Get it wrong, and you are just one of the statistics.
They say it takes 5 years to learn the track enough to go fast.
Which sort of suggests that the bikes are (way) faster than the riders are, and have been for quite some time...
This distinguished him from all the crashers.
But carrying speed in the corners is part of it.
Why just limit this to a Manx though ?
It took 50 years of development to first get a bike around the IoM course at an average 100 mph.
Bob McIntyre did it first, in 1957 on a Gilera 4 - which he had helped to design.
Took a while longer before a Manx did it.
You could argue it was tire development that allowed this.
And the riders having bigger and bigger gonads....
Peeling off for a fast corner before you can see it takes a certain amount of perfect memory.
Get it wrong, and you are just one of the statistics.
They say it takes 5 years to learn the track enough to go fast.
Which sort of suggests that the bikes are (way) faster than the riders are, and have been for quite some time...
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The improvements to the circuit must be worth a good 10 mph , with appropriate gearing .
Bumps removed , improved tarmac . etc .
Be intresting to see what a phyco could do on a genuine 70 job , these days .
John Coopers Manx, for instance .
Bumps removed , improved tarmac . etc .
Be intresting to see what a phyco could do on a genuine 70 job , these days .
John Coopers Manx, for instance .
I am sure the riders of the 50s and early 60s, the classic era were just as talented as in any other era including today. Their machinery had less of everything, handling, reliability, power and skinny tires, so a 100mph lap on a REAL 50s or 60s bike on skinny tires is in my opinion as legitimate an accomplishment as anything they are doing today.
What a lap on a real vintage Manx Norton would have on top of everything else is the honor of walking in the footsteps of giants, and also being to defy physics in a way by going back in time.
A long track with a lot of turns and a lot of danger, on an old bike with drum brakes and an Avon rib on front and an Avon Gp on the rear, Hairpin springs leaking Castrol R on everything and just four speeds and 40 some horsepower at the rear wheel, yes I will back that up as a hell of a challenge.
A lot of "vintage" racers who are running modern tires and an engine stuffed with exotic parts and 5-6 speed gearboxes do not hit the ton on the Isle of Man by a long-shot.
Before WWII top riders were cutting laps a hair over 90mph at the TT, those guys had to be a combination of crazy and iron to do it on that equipment?
What a lap on a real vintage Manx Norton would have on top of everything else is the honor of walking in the footsteps of giants, and also being to defy physics in a way by going back in time.
A long track with a lot of turns and a lot of danger, on an old bike with drum brakes and an Avon rib on front and an Avon Gp on the rear, Hairpin springs leaking Castrol R on everything and just four speeds and 40 some horsepower at the rear wheel, yes I will back that up as a hell of a challenge.
A lot of "vintage" racers who are running modern tires and an engine stuffed with exotic parts and 5-6 speed gearboxes do not hit the ton on the Isle of Man by a long-shot.
Before WWII top riders were cutting laps a hair over 90mph at the TT, those guys had to be a combination of crazy and iron to do it on that equipment?
grandpaul
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This might produce some interesting results:
Take the fastest of today's bikes and install a speed-limiting device (not RPM limiting) that limits the top speed (measured at the wheels) to approximately the same top speed as a very nicely prepped Manx Norton.
Take a very well respected TT racer and have him do 3 laps on each bike, giving it his all.
Compare and contrast results...
One can imagine any number of interesting points of discussion, but I believe this would separate theory from fact rather nicely.
Horsepower, torque, tires, brakes, handling, etc. would be the only relevant points of discussion.
Rider ability and top speed capability of the bike taken out of the equation.
Take the fastest of today's bikes and install a speed-limiting device (not RPM limiting) that limits the top speed (measured at the wheels) to approximately the same top speed as a very nicely prepped Manx Norton.
Take a very well respected TT racer and have him do 3 laps on each bike, giving it his all.
Compare and contrast results...
One can imagine any number of interesting points of discussion, but I believe this would separate theory from fact rather nicely.
Horsepower, torque, tires, brakes, handling, etc. would be the only relevant points of discussion.
Rider ability and top speed capability of the bike taken out of the equation.
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The other difference is motivation.
1. In the fifties the IOM still was part of the circuits counting to the world championship, not all the riders wanted to be there but some needed to to ensure they got maximum points but given the choice would not be there.
2. Now the IOM races are not part of anything else but the IOM standings, the racers that are there are there because they want to be there.
Very hard to believe though that a winner/lap record holder in the fifties would be only there because they had too.
1. In the fifties the IOM still was part of the circuits counting to the world championship, not all the riders wanted to be there but some needed to to ensure they got maximum points but given the choice would not be there.
2. Now the IOM races are not part of anything else but the IOM standings, the racers that are there are there because they want to be there.
Very hard to believe though that a winner/lap record holder in the fifties would be only there because they had too.
Perhaps the real question is how many of those 1950s and 1960s pilots, if put on a 2013 model superbike (not MotoGP bike, note) could achieve a +130 mph lap, like is the norm at the top level at the moment. Possibly all of them, given enough time to adapt (like 5 years, to relearn the circuit at those speeds ?!!).
Be durned interesting if anyone ever unleashes a genuine MotoGP bike on the IoM circuit.
Could take some learning to do a REALLY quick lap, a whole another level of performance again...
Be durned interesting if anyone ever unleashes a genuine MotoGP bike on the IoM circuit.
Could take some learning to do a REALLY quick lap, a whole another level of performance again...
grandpaul said:
Unless you also equalise the acceleration, you are still not really going to get them the same. ?
Thats not so easy to do...
And why worry - different era riders had different era bikes.
Appreciate them as the best of the time, regardless....
beng said:
Absolutely right BenG, but another serious factor was the state of the roads. I've been round the IoM more than a few times in '79 and '80 as a tourist, and I though then some of surfaces were pretty rough and variable. Scary stuff at speed. In a pub one night a couple of old local guys told me how much the "track" had been improved! Bear in mind, most of the Mountain section was a farmers road and graded and paved by the low cost means. Averaging +90MPH on that, often in damp and misty weather? Hard men indeed.
Luxury, sheer luxury !!!
In the 1907 TT, ALL the roads were dirt. (?).
And they (the best) still averaged 45 mph, was it.
That with atmospheric inlet valves...
So took 30 years to gain another 45 mph, more horsepower and tarred roads and gears and all.
And then another 60 years to gain another 45 mph....
In the 1907 TT, ALL the roads were dirt. (?).
And they (the best) still averaged 45 mph, was it.
That with atmospheric inlet valves...
So took 30 years to gain another 45 mph, more horsepower and tarred roads and gears and all.
And then another 60 years to gain another 45 mph....
johnm
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Well since Anstey is going to ride one of McIntosh's Manxes at this year race we may get to fnd out.
http://www.iomttbreaks.com/news/Bruce-A ... ic-TT.html
http://www.iomttbreaks.com/news/Bruce-A ... ic-TT.html
ludwig said:
Hey, Ludwig ... don't hold back ... tell us what you really think! :lol: and, what about adult porn? eh? eh? Watch that, do ya?
Seriously, I would refer you to Hobot's "Use it or Lose it" thread. You might have something to contribute to the comments there about the thrill of riding like a lunatic.
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'The money the IOM makes on the TT is stained with the blood of young fools .
It is like child porn : I know it exists , but I refuse to watch ..'
One of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. By the way, everything is stained with the blood of young fools. It's called life.
It is like child porn : I know it exists , but I refuse to watch ..'
One of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. By the way, everything is stained with the blood of young fools. It's called life.
While I have sympathies for these comments, maybe we should ban cars and trains and aeroplanes and ships and horses and bicycles and pedal cars - and even legs. !?
A mighty lot of folks have died in/on/around these over the centuries and millenia, especially when they were new and safety concerns were only just being developed.
Dangerous place out there, watch in every direction, including whats under your feet and coming out of the sky.
And if you are traveling faster than the scenery, especially what is ahead....
This is my opinion, and its worth precisely what you paid for it !?
A mighty lot of folks have died in/on/around these over the centuries and millenia, especially when they were new and safety concerns were only just being developed.
Dangerous place out there, watch in every direction, including whats under your feet and coming out of the sky.
And if you are traveling faster than the scenery, especially what is ahead....
This is my opinion, and its worth precisely what you paid for it !?
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