Alton Electric Starter - Share Your Experience

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bill said:
IMHO it is technically better for the reasons I stated. it is NOT in an over run state with a sprag clutch that is a KNOWN weakness with the 850 MK3 and unproven in LONG term use on the Alton. the Alton also has a lower watt output alternator than is available so another draw back. without seeing torque to the crank shaft numbers from either one from all appearances the Alton MIGHT be the looser on this point but that is just a guess on my part. yes it is more expensive and you do loose the OE look's with an after market air filter.
nortonspeed said:
Old Britts or QPD better than Alton in what way?
Technically? : questionable!
Price? : certainly not!
Looks? : certainly not!
IMHO Alton is favourite.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

So I guess we have to wait a few years to find out who the winner is! For now: lacking a timing mark on the rotor is a minus (Alton).
 
bill said:
IMHO it is technically better for the reasons I stated. it is NOT in an over run state with a sprag clutch that is a KNOWN weakness with the 850 MK3 and unproven in LONG term use on the Alton. the Alton also has a lower watt output alternator than is available so another draw back. without seeing torque to the crank shaft numbers from either one from all appearances the Alton MIGHT be the looser on this point but that is just a guess on my part. yes it is more expensive and you do loose the OE look's with an after market air filter.
nortonspeed said:
Old Britts or QPD better than Alton in what way?
Technically? : questionable!
Price? : certainly not!
Looks? : certainly not!
IMHO Alton is favourite.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I don't think the issue with the MK 3 is that it is a sprag, it is that it is a very small sprag. The Alton sprag is far larger. A poorly built bridge may collapse, and we all know that has happened. The issue was not that it was a bridge, but rather that it was poorly built. Similarly, an undersized sprag may well not last long, but one that has the correct specifications for the work it has to do will function long and well. It is not as if only a Norton and a few other other devices use a sprag. There are thousands upon thousands of variations, and millions upon millions of applications.

I am happy to be distributing the Alton kit for several reasons.
One is certainly the quality of the parts. Some have mentioned fitment issues with non stock installations. I think it is totally acceptable for some modifications to be required when installing with different belt drives, or crankcases and the likes. It speaks volumes for the quality of the kit that you can easily adapt it for reliable use with a wide range of other components.

And PRICE!!
Some say, "that's a lot of money". Except it is not.
Very few previously could afford an electric starter, because it was a lot of money, and installation was drawn out and complicated, without the possibility of an easy reversal.
I am currently offering the kit for $2250 AUD delivered anywhere in mainland Australia. I have been around motorcycles for a good few years, and that is one of the best value parts I have ever seen. I am not saying that as I am selling them, but rather that's a major reason why I wanted to sell them.

Alton back-up.
They stand behind their product.
And they are currently working on other kits, for instance a cure for the mk 3 ills is well underway.

I do think the eStarter Kit is a great product, and at a very affordable price point.
That's what got me on board!

I have raised the issue of a timing mark with Alton, and to be fair it is not that difficult to paint a little line on the alternator. Keyway is at 12 o'clock, after all. But it would be nice if the line was already there, and that is the point I have made.
 
I have had three Alton Alternators on my Vincent Rapide. First was a new design three phase unit that was intended to overcome the problem of the older Alton, that of low output at speeds below about 60 mph on those bikes. I had ongoing problems (virtually no output when hot, maybe 20 watts max.)with it and a lot of contact with Paul Hamon. Eventually we both decided that there was something wrong with the design.
He came up with a new design, back to single phase but with an internal set of gears which sped up rotation of the alternator. He also used stronger permanent magnets. It put out power like crazy at low revs, but after a couple of thousand miles the plastic internal gears let go. I came home from a long trip running dead loss, battery charger on at night plugged into a wall socket at the various motels we stayed in along the way.

These gears are lubricated with grease which eventually all flings off, then the gear teeth come off.
Paul first dealt with this problem first by sending me new plastic gears, which I installed and lubricated as instructed. This set lasted a few thousand miles then let go. By then Paul had seen enough of this problem that he had gone back to a direct drive single phase design, so full circle, except he used stronger magnets than in the old low powered units. He may have made other changes as well. I have one of these units on the bike now and it works well.

Output is lower than with the sped up unit, but still quite good.

From purchasing the first unit to receiving the third unit three years and several thousand miles elapsed. Paul did both replacements free of charge and never made me feel that he doubted the problems I was reporting. If anything it was the opposite, he wanted as much info as possible in order to rectify the problems.

So I think Alton is a great Company and now has a very good product in the Alton alternator for Vincents.

I'm still leery of that Sprag on the Norton starter though. The Hamons are friends with Francois Grosset, he builds a sprsg type starter for Vincents. It has experienced some of the same sprag breakage problems that the mk 3 Commandos have.
Paul's brother Herve is developing a heavier duty sprag type starter for Vincents. I might use one of these for the high comp. 1360 motor.
On the other hand, there is a German built bendix type starter that is in the prototype stages....might be good too.

Glen
 
I am VERY familiar with sprag clutch's as I have over 35 years in the auto transmission industry. Yes the MK3 sprag was not up to the task as has been proven. the one in the Alton is to young to have a service record so it is a wait an see. another issue I see forth coming is trying to run it in a DRY belt drive primary application if it is attempted. the other question is why would he have a lower output alternator than what we can already install??? All the states in the US require headlight on at all times so I can also see charging issues with in town riding and multiple start's with the lower output. I would have liked to seen a 250-300 watt capable alternator. I am not doubting his customer service as worntorn has pointed out but I do feel that it has a few faults.

NorComCycles said:
I don't think the issue with the MK 3 is that it is a sprag, it is that it is a very small sprag. The Alton sprag is far larger. A poorly built bridge may collapse, and we all know that has happened. The issue was not that it was a bridge, but rather that it was poorly built. Similarly, an undersized sprag may well not last long, but one that has the correct specifications for the work it has to do will function long and well. It is not as if only a Norton and a few other other devices use a sprag. There are thousands upon thousands of variations, and millions upon millions of applications.

I am happy to be distributing the Alton kit for several reasons.
One is certainly the quality of the parts. Some have mentioned fitment issues with non stock installations. I think it is totally acceptable for some modifications to be required when installing with different belt drives, or crankcases and the likes. It speaks volumes for the quality of the kit that you can easily adapt it for reliable use with a wide range of other components.

And PRICE!!
Some say, "that's a lot of money". Except it is not.
Very few previously could afford an electric starter, because it was a lot of money, and installation was drawn out and complicated, without the possibility of an easy reversal.
I am currently offering the kit for $2250 AUD delivered anywhere in mainland Australia. I have been around motorcycles for a good few years, and that is one of the best value parts I have ever seen. I am not saying that as I am selling them, but rather that's a major reason why I wanted to sell them.

Alton back-up.
They stand behind their product.
And they are currently working on other kits, for instance a cure for the mk 3 ills is well underway.

I do think the eStarter Kit is a great product, and at a very affordable price point.
That's what got me on board!

I have raised the issue of a timing mark with Alton, and to be fair it is not that difficult to paint a little line on the alternator. Keyway is at 12 o'clock, after all. But it would be nice if the line was already there, and that is the point I have made.
Click to expand...
 
nortonspeed said:
So I guess we have to wait a few years to find out who the winner is! For now: lacking a timing mark on the rotor is a minus (Alton).
Click to expand...

That is being adressed now.

Jean
 
bill said:
I am VERY familiar with sprag clutch's as I have over 35 years in the auto transmission industry. Yes the MK3 sprag was not up to the task as has been proven. the one in the Alton is to young to have a service record so it is a wait an see. another issue I see forth coming is trying to run it in a DRY belt drive primary application if it is attempted. the other question is why would he have a lower output alternator than what we can already install??? All the states in the US require headlight on at all times so I can also see charging issues with in town riding and multiple start's with the lower output. I would have liked to seen a 250-300 watt capable alternator. I am not doubting his customer service as worntorn has pointed out but I do feel that it has a few faults.
Click to expand...

Alternator output on our motorcycles is a toss up, they can make them more powerful but then if the owner keeps the original rectifier and zener, they will fry. While they could include a rectifier/regulator, there is no guarantee the owner will use it, so who is responsible when something goes wrong, obviously not the guy who purchased the alternator and installed it without reading the instructions :roll:

Jean
 
I think you are reaching at straws with this reasoning. that is like saying that if you purchase the sparks 200 watt alternator you MIGHT not change the regulator?? ANYONE that would attempt to install this E start kit WITHOUT READING the directions has no business with a wrench.

Jeandr said:
Alternator output on our motorcycles is a toss up, they can make them more powerful but then if the owner keeps the original rectifier and zener, they will fry. While they could include a rectifier/regulator, there is no guarantee the owner will use it, so who is responsible when something goes wrong, obviously not the guy who purchased the alternator and installed it without reading the instructions :roll:

Jean
Click to expand...
 
I hope Im not hijacking the thread but has anyone fitted there own electric start on a bike from a different sourced bike as I quite like the idea of engineering my own set up
 
bill said:
I think you are reaching at straws with this reasoning. that is like saying that if you purchase the sparks 200 watt alternator you MIGHT not change the regulator?? ANYONE that would attempt to install this E start kit WITHOUT READING the directions has no business with a wrench.
Click to expand...

You are right, must have been a knee jerk reaction, but then I have seen many instances of customers trying to pull a fast one at my friend's shop. For example one guy who had his wiring loom replaced came back a year later saying the wires had fried. I looked at the wiring loom and ALL the red ground wires were burned to a crisp. I asked what happened and he said he had trouble starting the bike because the battery was low so he used booster cables. He said it happened while running, not when he used the booster cables. As CSIs would say, follow the evidence, it was clear he connected the negative clamp to the frame and then he clamped the positive to the positive on the battery, this is the usual practice on cars, but on standard british bikes with positive ground, it was an immediate short circuit, the fuse was not in the circuit so the ground wires just melted. He never admitted that is what he did, but he didn't raise a stink about getting the work done for free and a free wiring loom either.

Also, don't forget someone was talking about wishing for a 300 watt alternator rather than a 150 watt on the Alton starter. A 200 watt sparks is probably not powerful enough to destroy the standard components while a 300+ alternator with high output at low revs might. Standard wiring looms with 18 or 16 ga wires may be at risk of going up in smoke with a high output like 300 watts or more.

Jean
 
Jeandr said:
http://www.alton-france.com/download.html A short (10 minutes) video showing an Alton starter being installed on a standard (as if there are still any left :roll: ) Commando.

Jean
Click to expand...

I have a completely stock 850 commando and plan on doing one of these upgrades when I can't kick the old gal anymore. i never found a need to update anything, it seems to work perfectly well the way it is, points and all.

Well....I did put hard anodized slides in the Amals, so I guess it's not 100% original anymore.
 
Jeandr said:
http://www.alton-france.com/download.html A short (10 minutes) video showing an Alton starter being installed on a standard (as if there are still any left :roll: ) Commando.
Jean
Click to expand...
Jean,
Nice video, i can see one of these in my future.
Just wondering how the stator wires will last at the stator junction under Commando Iso vibes, the Lucas stator wiring looks a bit more robust in that area with the epoxy encasement.
Do you know whether any thought was given to clipping these wires to the steady plate to shorten the free length?
 
ntst8 said:
ust wondering how the stator wires will last at the stator junction under Commando Iso vibes, the Lucas stator wiring looks a bit more robust in that area with the epoxy encasement.
Do you know whether any thought was given to clipping these wires to the steady plate to shorten the free length?
Click to expand...

I will ask. I was told they wanted to have a final design for the alternator before commiting to having them potted in plastic. They are still wondering about final output power of the alternator which is currently 150 watts and how soon the power comes on.

Jean
 
I've done about 1000 miles since I fitted mine and have used the starter many times in all sorts of conditions. I run daytime dipped headlight (55W) with no trouble at all i.e. no sign of the Shorai battery running down and making electric starting fail. I would say the 150W output is quite adequate.
 
Snorton74 said:
Anyone have issues with idler gear spindle working loose?
Click to expand...

If you bought a series 2 kit, you should have received a fix by e-mail, if not, send me a PM and I will forward the instructions.

Jean
 
jeffdavison said:
any word yet on an Alton kit for a belt drive '74 Commando with Negative ground?

JD
Click to expand...

All in due time, they are targetting the most common denominator at this time which is chain primary with positive ground.

Jean
 
jeffdavison said:
any word yet on an Alton kit for a belt drive '74 Commando with Negative ground?

JD
Click to expand...

You might consider going back to original positive ground :wink:
 
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