961 Clutch - I may be able to help.

Hello to all at Access Norton.

This is my first post on your site, and although I have never owned a Norton, I may be of help regarding some components and general information.
I don't want to give away to much about my self,because at the moment the whole Norton situation is a little prickly.

Some issues that you constantly discuss and struggle to find an end to frustrates me as you are clearly in need of help.

I could begin to give a a whole Old Testament length story, but I won't.
Ask me some questions about the clutch for example, and I will try to answer them constructively.
But first:

1 - The clutch is NOT Suzuki, and never was, nor was it R6. The Kenny Dreer clutch was a Frankenstein monster of a thing and never left the table it landed on at MCT.

2- The clutch was designed specifically for the 961

3-The six Pressure Springs are unique, and not EBC and were made here in the UK
(I have some still in stock)

4-The four cush drive springs
were made here in the UK were made here in the UK (I have some still in stock)

5- I may be able to contact the original UK importer of the Friction & Steel plates, but will probably have to open a new account and buy in quantity?

The clutch was originally made and assembled in the UK, but later the components were made in Taiwan (To a very hight standard I may add), then assembled at Donington.
The clutch in a previous post with the broken drive spring is a Taiwan/UK type, not the UK Billet unit.

I have a unique insight into the development of the 961
Any information I can say, will simply be the truth. I don't want to compromise my position until the dust settles.
I hope I can help ?

Me thinks you’re gonna be busy ‘Nikolai’...

Welcome to the forum.

Nikoli said:

4-The four cush drive springs
were made here in the UK were made here in the UK (I have some still in stock)

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Hi Nokoli,

Welcome! You have answered one of my recent queries, as I tryed to find a picture of the clutch wheel / cush design. Do you have a picture?

-Knut

Hi Nikoli,

you clearly have some close connection to the design of the 961. What most of us are now hoping for is information on sourcing replacement parts, either when needed, or to stock up on now for future use. Any info you can offer on parts that are interchangeable with with those on other motorcycle models and/or available as standard parts with multiple applications (like temp and pressure sensors, etc.) will be more than welcome. The clutch is a perfect example. I'm sure many of us are a bit disappointed to find that we can't just order some of the parts from our local Suzuki dealer.

Two of the questions I would like to see answered relate to the transmission and the crankshaft. Kenny Dreer's original crankshaft was pressed up using Rotax crankshaft parts. Do you know how much the design was changed (if any) by the time the 961 got to production? Similarly, Kenny originally used a Harley Sportster gearbox cluster from Baker Drivetrain. I'm assuming that the final 961 parts were sourced from a UK source, but I would like to know if any of them are still interchangeable with the Harley parts.

And of course, welcome to the forum.

Ken

lcrken said:

Hi Nikoli,

you clearly have some close connection to the design of the 961. What most of us are now hoping for is information on sourcing replacement parts, either when needed, or to stock up on now for future use. Any info you can offer on parts that are interchangeable with with those on other motorcycle models and/or available as standard parts with multiple applications (like temp and pressure sensors, etc.) will be more than welcome. The clutch is a perfect example. I'm sure many of us are a bit disappointed to find that we can't just order some of the parts from our local Suzuki dealer.

Two of the questions I would like to see answered relate to the transmission and the crankshaft. Kenny Dreer's original crankshaft was pressed up using Rotax crankshaft parts. Do you know how much the design was changed (if any) by the time the 961 got to production? Similarly, Kenny originally used a Harley Sportster gearbox cluster from Baker Drivetrain. I'm assuming that the final 961 parts were sourced from a UK source, but I would like to know if any of them are still interchangeable with the Harley parts.

And of course, welcome to the forum.

Ken

Click to expand...

Ken,

The Crank I believe was built by Falicon in the USA, then later when Norton took the engine away from MCT the cranks were supplied from the Taiwan supplier to a much higher standard at an absolute fraction of the cost! It really was an eye opener to see the whole quality from manufacture to packaging supply at the cost they were asking. It really is no wonder every thing is sourced from ROC
It was the same with the gearbox. In fact the whole engine and transmission went through a complete redesign/improvement process, which is why it took so long after the first 200 SE models to speed up production. The original design in fairness to both Norton & MCT was a complete no go and was probably not what Stuart expected when he bought the Commando.
As for electronic sensors? I can't really offer much help there. At some point Electrex World in the UK were involved for quite some time. May be they can help. Also Jenvey for the throttle bodies were at one point involved

https://www.electrexworld.co.uk/
https://www.jenvey.co.uk/

The gears and transmission shaft splines in the later models are completely different and are absolutely NOT compatible with Baker items. maybe some of the early models are, but I can't say at which point they changed over. I think the splines may be DIN, but not sure?

The valve gear assembly and rockers received the best and most welcome design improvement in the cylinder head area.
Again from Taiwan. Astonishing improvement over the 1st generation design from the Dreer prototype.

What can't be seen from the outside of the engine is the amount of improvement that the boys in the design team actually made.
It was a huge mountain to climb, but they did some good work. Sourcing and co-design from Taiwan no doubt kept Norton going for as long as they actually did.

One issue you are always going to have is that suppliers changed regular over the years as did the design (for improvement).
Therefore its difficult to know what parts you have in your model and who supplied them, especially with the naughty trick were parts would be swapped out secretly whilst under Service back at base!

mdt-son said:

Hi Nokoli,

Welcome! You have answered one of my recent queries, as I tryed to find a picture of the clutch wheel / cush design. Do you have a picture?

-Knut

Click to expand...

Sorry, I can't do that.
I can help in other ways, but not give out other peoples designs or drawings.

Nikoli said:

One issue you are always going to have is that suppliers changed regular over the years as did the design (for improvement).
Therefore its difficult to know what parts you have in your model and who supplied them, especially with the naughty trick were parts would be swapped out secretly whilst under Service back at base!

Click to expand...

Welcome to the group Nikoli!

Reading between the lines I get the impression that if our clutch/transmission fails we are screwed, being unique and of unknown Taiwanese make ?

I have a unique insight into the development of the 961
Any information I can say, will simply be the truth. I don't want to compromise my position until the dust settles.
I hope I can help ?


I am sure you will be a great help to us all. Thanks.

MxMartin said:

Welcome to the group Nikoli!

Reading between the lines I get the impression that if our clutch/transmission fails we are screwed, being unique and of unknown Taiwanese make ?

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Not necessarily. It doesn't matter who made the parts or where in the world they were made. Its the custodian of the original designs thats your issue (That being Norton). I think you may well have problems in the short term sourcing gearbox parts,but I can at lease help with clutch issues. All this being until some one re-starts manufacture of the OEM components.

The Clutch has a major issue being that it only uses FOUR cush drive springs and not three pairs of two (Six in total).
There is a reason why this is so, but its not what was originally intended.
It would be great to address this, but the costs would be very high.


The very first sets of clutch plates were Japanese made high quality items purchased from a UK supplier.
Then the same items were bought direct from the importer at higher volume. Never in my knowledge were EBC used ever.
The EBC items were looked at but never used.
I have a choice to use the original items or they offer a more cost effective friction plate which I have never tested.
It may be worth testing these alternative plates if some one is willing?
I have many pressure springs available and can have many more produced.
Same applies to the cush drive springs. But the area around the cush drive mechanism requires special attention. You simply can't just throw in some new springs because there maybe a reason why they have failed.

Nikoli said:

All this being until some one re-starts manufacture of the OEM components.

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We are only starting to get a better understanding of how few 961's were produced, then we have to factor in the variances you mention due to redesign over the years, and the probable lack of records as to which bike had which components, it would seem most unlikely that anyone would want to reproduce any OEM parts given the low demand. I had myself down as a 'keeper' but the joy of ownership will get knocked for six if I have to ride it with kid gloves on!

All this being until some one re-starts manufacture of the OEM components.

What is your opinion on the probability that Norton 961 OEM components manufacture will be re-started ?

Nikoli said:

Sorry, I can't do that.
I can help in other ways, but not give out other peoples designs or drawings.

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I didn't mean asking for drawings, just a picture of the clutch wheel showing the cush arrangement. Isn't there a build book or similar available to service partners which shows an 'exploded' view of the clutch arrangement?

-Knut

Thanks for the additional info, Nicoli. Kenny's first crankshafts were supplied by Falicon. I know Kenny had some previous experience with them making one-piece crankshafts for the classic Commandos, so I assume that's why he went to them for the 952/961 prototypes, whick were built up from Rotax parts. Interestingly, at least one of the early prototypes used a 360 degree crankshaft, not the 270 degree of the final design. I don't know if that one was actually ever run. The only pictures I have of it are in a partially assembled engine.

Also, I just compared some pictures of Kenny's Baker transmission in the prototype against pictures of the later production design, and some of the differences are quite clear. I should have done that before asking you about it. Unfortunately for us owners, that means we will not be sourcing spares from HD or Baker, nor will we be swapping in the Baker 6-speed kit.

It is a little discouraging to realize that the odds of anyone deciding to supply the major engine and gearbox parts as spares are pretty poor, considering the total 961 production numbers. But maybe we'll get lucky. I guess we'll just have to wait and see who ends up owning the original designs, and what they decide to do with them. I have to wonder if there aren't some major parts, like heads, cases, etc. still sitting at unpaid suppliers, that might eventually be available. Maybe we'll see some of them on eBay once the dust clears.

In the meantime, thanks again for the information you are able to supply.

Ken

You sound like a valuable asset to us owners! Thanks!

mdt-son said:

I didn't mean asking for drawings, just a picture of the clutch wheel showing the cush arrangement. Isn't there a build book or similar available to service partners which shows an 'exploded' view of the clutch arrangement?

-Knut

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Sorry, I misunderstood your request.
As far as I'm aware there is no 'Service Detail' for this area as it is a sealed unit and not for general service. Once assembled it should stay assembled as with any clutch unit. I will see if I can help in some way. Are you trying to re-build your clutch in this area?

TonyA said:

All this being until some one re-starts manufacture of the OEM components.

What is your opinion on the probability that Norton 961 OEM components manufacture will be re-started ?

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Who knows? That's what we all want to know. I guess at some point it will definitely start again with who ever owns the rights to do so.
Its any ones guess. Sorry.

Nikoli said:

As far as I'm aware there is no 'Service Detail' for this area as it is a sealed unit and not for general service. Once assembled it should stay assembled as with any clutch unit. I will see if I can help in some way. Are you trying to re-build your clutch in this area?

Click to expand...

Being a mechanical engineer, I am thinking of developing an improved clutch and cush arrangement for the classic Commando. Orienting design along the lines of the 961 seems sensible (I've even considered a geared drive for my own use, but will probably stick to a chain drive for now). In a further evolution, a redesigned clutch for the 961 may evolve.

Knowing who owns the intellectual property covering design of the 961 clutch would be of interest.

-Knut

mdt-son said:

Being a mechanical engineer, I am thinking of developing an improved clutch and cush arrangement for the classic Commando. Orienting design along the lines of the 961 seems sensible (I've even considered a geared drive for my own use, but will probably stick to a chain drive for now). In a further evolution, a redesigned clutch for the 961 may evolve.

Knowing who owns the intellectual property covering design of the 961 clutch would be of interest.

-Knut

Click to expand...

Knut,

I can help you with your design for the classic Commando project, no problem. I need some time to collect all my information as it has been around five years since I saw a design for a twin engine such as yours. Can you let me know what is the out side diameter of the clutch, or and image ?

As for 'Knowing who owns the intellectual property covering design of the 961 clutch would be of interest'
I would be very keen on who 'thinks' they own this data. And I would be very interested in seeing proof of this.

Nikolai,

Thanks, Nikolai. I will collect the data and approach you in a thread not related to the 961.

-Knut