932 amal carb and the FNG

I, of course, being the FNG trying to learn and get my father's bike back on the road!
Hey, you guys use the term 'slide'. Even the manuals themselves use the term 'slides'... but the damned authors never once identify what it is they MEAN with the term! Please correct me if wrong... my ASSumption is that the term means either the air valve OR the throttle valve... or BOTH??

ANyway, more fng questions, having removed the carbs last night.

1.) hell of a time getting a solid bite with the allen key to remove the manifolds to the head. It would appear that I'll need to shave a good 1/4" in order to sink the key solidly into the bolt, rather than only getting a 'piece' of the bolt with the key, and scared it'd strip out. Is this a given? To remove some of the key? As is, the key is still a little to long to fit in correctly.

(nasty looking crap in there from failed tank sealer. I've some pics, but can't post as I'm now at work. Looks like the epoxy/resin went through the carbs pretty much as I expected)

2.) when removing the air pilot and throttle stop screws, OIL fell out. Yep, they were well coated... saturated, even, with what looked, felt, and then tasted like oil. Having only READ about a wet sump, I'm only GUESSING... but how'n hell could oil get into the carbs?! Both these screws plugged with oil... maybe that might be a SMALL reason as to why the bike might not start?

3.) I presume I need to order a carb 'kit' PER carb? As in TWO kits?

Suprising to me, was that the carbs actually looked MUCH nicer than I expected them to. I can see resin crap (whether from failed tank or dried fuel I'll probably never know for sure). I'm thinking now that had I used fresh fuel and clean plugs, she'd probably have fired up, asuming I had everything else ready.

4.) My assumption for the QUICKEST remedy to a wet sump (just to test if she'd start up) would be simply drain/remove all the oil, as per an oil change? (I'm following threads on venting the case, etc, for 'down-the-road' things to do).

5.) I was expecting the 'O' ring between the manifolds and the carb (per Clymer's), but there was also a gasket...?? Book didn't mention it??

TIA, Gary

P.S. that air filter is nasty! K & N, I believe, as in 'KaN' it be cleaned in anyway, or must it be replaced?

Gary said:

Hey, you guys use the term 'slide'. Even the manuals themselves use the term 'slides'... but the damned authors never once identify what it is they MEAN with the term! Please correct me if wrong... my ASSumption is that the term means either the air valve OR the throttle valve... or BOTH??

Click to expand...

Normally, when "slide" is mentioned, it is generally the throttle slide that is being referred to:

http://www.surreycycles.com/carb_01.htm
http://www.amalcarb.co.uk/AmalExplodedI ... ares=true#

When reference is made to the choke slide, then people will normally say 'choke slide'.

Gary said:

1.) hell of a time getting a solid bite with the allen key to remove the manifolds to the head. It would appear that I'll need to shave a good 1/4" in order to sink the key solidly into the bolt, rather than only getting a 'piece' of the bolt with the key, and scared it'd strip out. Is this a given? To remove some of the key? As is, the key is still a little to long to fit in correctly.

Click to expand...

Cut the key down. That will be your first Norton 'special tool'.

Gary said:

2.) when removing the air pilot and throttle stop screws, OIL fell out. Yep, they were well coated... saturated, even, with what looked, felt, and then tasted like oil. Having only READ about a wet sump, I'm only GUESSING... but how'n hell could oil get into the carbs?! Both these screws plugged with oil... maybe that might be a SMALL reason as to why the bike might not start?

Click to expand...

I think it is probably residue from the fuel?

Gary said:

3.) I presume I need to order a carb 'kit' PER carb? As in TWO kits?

Click to expand...

Yes.

Gary said:

4.) My assumption for the QUICKEST remedy to a wet sump (just to test if she'd start up) would be simply drain/remove all the oil, as per an oil change? (I'm following threads on venting the case, etc, for 'down-the-road' things to do).

Click to expand...

Drain the old oil from the sump, and either tip it back into the oil tank, or preferably, fill the tank with fresh oil, but don't fill it any higher than the low mark on the dipstick at first. Only do the final topping up after the engine has been run for a few minutes.

Gary said:

5.) I was expecting the 'O' ring between the manifolds and the carb (per Clymer's), but there was also a gasket...?? Book didn't mention it??

Click to expand...

I would only expect to find the thick insulating gaskets at the head to manifold joints, and O-rings between the manifolds and carbs, but an extra gasket isn't going to do any harm.

Gary said:

that air filter is nasty! K & N, I believe, as in 'KaN' it be cleaned in anyway, or must it be replaced?

Click to expand...

K&Ns can be cleaned, so it's up to you.

1) There are a couple of places where "modified" Allen keys are needed, and you found one of them. Saw, grind, file, bend to fit. Keep it in your toolbox, you'll use it again.

2) Oil in the carb I would suspect came from the oil tank breather spewing oil into the air cleaner. Overfilling the oil tank results in excess oil blowing out that way. Can't think of any other direction it could come from.

3) Kits come both singly and in pairs, read the fine print when you order. Personally I'd just clean what you have profusely and reassemble. A pair of gaskets is recommended though.

4) Oil in the carb isn't a sign of wet sumping. The bike kinda needs to be running before you can judge that. Installing the breather check valve (per recent threads here) would be a good idea but don't go nuts on this.

5) Not a factory fitment. I use the o-ring and a smear of RTV on that joint.

Air filter disposition depends on exactly what you have. Factory air box, modified, etc.

I'd wonder if what looked like oil in the carb could be fuel spoiled by age and perhaps contaminaed by melting resin?
On those allens I like to start them with my cut down allen wrench and then use a ball end allen or if I don't have that a flat bladed screw driver that just fits it.

Cookie said:

On those allens I like to start them with my cut down allen wrench and then use a ball end allen or if I don't have that a flat bladed screw driver that just fits it.

Click to expand...

I ground a ball end onto my special carb Allen key, so that I can spin the screws most of the way in or out with the ball end!

Gary said:

2.) when removing the air pilot and throttle stop screws, OIL fell out. Yep, they were well coated... saturated, even, with what looked, felt, and then tasted like oil. Having only READ about a wet sump, I'm only GUESSING... but how'n hell could oil get into the carbs?! Both these screws plugged with oil... maybe that might be a SMALL reason as to why the bike might not start?
TIA, Gary

Click to expand...

Is it possible that A LOT of oil was poured into the spark plug ports in order to preserve the motor for long term storage and it leaked through an open valve into the carb?

L.A.B. said:

Cookie said:

On those allens I like to start them with my cut down allen wrench and then use a ball end allen or if I don't have that a flat bladed screw driver that just fits it.

Click to expand...

I ground a ball end onto my special carb Allen key, so that I can spin the screws most of the way in or out with the ball end!

Click to expand...

That's an excellent idea LAB - if it wasn't for the snowdrift outside I'd be in the garage right now grinding the ball-end onto my cut-down Allen key.
I discovered a while ago that the French refer to this type of tool as an 'English Key'. Good to know that even the best inventions can be improved upon

I just cleaned up my carbs and got them fitted - the only change I made was to replace the nylon float needles with Viton-tipped brass. I've never has a carb leak on me with these needles fitted.
Sorry the photo doesn't show them up well - they're in the plastic bag underneath the old ones
I've done away with the air valves and blanked off the screw holes in the carb tops. I've never needed to use them on any bike yet, but there's always a first time....



Installed - mostly. Note the unbridgeable gap between the carbs and the filter housing; I need to get the airbox top angle-bracket installed in front of the frame gusset to reduce the gap...

RennieK said:

Gary said:

2.) when removing the air pilot and throttle stop screws, OIL fell out. Yep, they were well coated... saturated, even, with what looked, felt, and then tasted like oil. Having only READ about a wet sump, I'm only GUESSING... but how'n hell could oil get into the carbs?! Both these screws plugged with oil... maybe that might be a SMALL reason as to why the bike might not start?
TIA, Gary

Click to expand...

Is it possible that A LOT of oil was poured into the spark plug ports in order to preserve the motor for long term storage and it leaked through an open valve into the carb?

Click to expand...

Only if the engine was on it's side.

Wow, you guys are great! Truly wonderful! Seriously, great read for a newbie, BLESS your hearts for the tips, and I shall be mulling/reading it all over a few more times. Multiple comments to you guys all wrapped up in one: first of all, hey, I can't be TO BAD if the very first tool I pick up (allen key) I realize (and ask) that I might have to cut it down, eh? (yep, amazing how little it takes to make me feel good...)

L.A.B.: You're awesome, bet you're a distant cousin, lol's! You know the old saying about the USA and the UK being 2 nations divided by 1 language? Well, I bit my tongue 'till it bled, what with me wanting to CRACK A JOKE about the UK not speaking proper english... but then realized sooner or later, one of my distant cousins your side of the pond wouldn't realize I was being 'facetious' (sp?), and might attack, thinking I was poking fun. Not. Truly, the links you supplied are labelled DIFFERENT from my literature, honest! Same diagrams and exploded views... but mine say 'Jack' about the term 'slide', lol's. Thanks again.

Dave: while my Dad's carb's were gunked up, they were still incredibly cleaner than I expected them to be. I've heard now that they might have less than a 100 miles on them as they were shipped someplece in California for clean/rebuild prior to being parked years ago. certainly looks good, only in need now of replacement gaskets after the cleaning.

Cookie: No. Good thought, and it had crossed my mind, also, hence the taste test. Clean looking oil, still 'honey' colored. No clue where it came from, certainly not resin. I *know* what the resinated crap looks like, having become quite the expert. Carbs were BONE DRY, except that large dollop of oil on the tip of each screw.

RIP: no, no oil poured down there.

SWOOSH: you mean that I was NOT supposed to store the bike from the rafters, suspended by it's wheels? (i.e. "engine on it's side" comment)

LAB: don't understand the effect your ground key edge has (yet) but shall copy it.
~Gary

You can just buy ball end allens. They are sixteen bucks at Harbor Freight but thier have big handles. I bought mine at a tool shop locally.
The real problem is that you can not use the allen wrench straight since the carb body is in the way, ball ends let you slant the wrench.

I removed the short section of a 1/4" ball ended allen and use a 1/4 x 1/4 socket and ratchet .

Gary said:

Truly, the links you supplied are labelled DIFFERENT from my literature, honest! Same diagrams and exploded views... but mine say 'Jack' about the term 'slide', lol's.

Click to expand...

Don't worry, it shouldn't take you long too long to become fully bi-lingual as far as US/UK technical terms are concerned, as most of us here are already quite fluent in both! So you will soon become familiar with UK tech. terms such as spanner, mudguard, yoke, silencer, stanchion, petrol etc. as we in the UK are with wrench, fender, triple tree, muffler, fork tube, gas etc.! :wink:

Gary said:

LAB: don't understand the effect your ground key edge has (yet) but shall copy it.

Click to expand...

As Cookie said, the ball end allows the key to turn the screw even when it's held over at an angle of up to approx 25 degrees off the line of the screw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Allen ... _end_1.jpg which does make it much easier to screw in/out the two inner manifold flange to head cap screws because the carbs with their manifolds need bolting together first, and then each assembly is fitted to the head, which is awkward enough, but attempting to fit the carbs to the manifolds after the manifolds have been fixed to the head is practically impossible.

I do own ball ended key sets, but I ground the ball on the long end of my shortened key, so that it became two tools in one.

I think I understand the talk about the ball end keys. Must admit I've never used them. Kick myself, because I went and bought a cheaper... ah... being possibly international here (ahem!) perhaps I'd better say I purchased a few keys at Harbor Freight to cut down. Kick myself, because could have just gotten the ball ones, eh? Oh, well, whatever, live and learn.

By the way, JimC... nice trick if I understood you. Simply cut off (enough of) the end of the key which you then put a socket over, hey?

I uploaded several pics to photobucket. Want to show anyone who'se never seen it what the USA fuel is doing to the interior of the fiberglass tanks, 'least, down here in the carb's and manifolds. Not sure if you'll get to see it all very well... pics might get cropped as I've not yet taken time to figure that sizing thing out. Anyway, first symptoms of failed sealer was the reluctance of the bike to start, due to contaminated PETROL anyone doesn't understand this, I shall describe in detail should you wish. The heavier than fuel resin sits at bottom of tank, ergo, first to be sucked into the carb. It burns as an... well, almost as an plastic. You end up cleaning the entire electrode of the plugs literally every couple of miles, as in 2, 3 or 5 miles, NOT 20, 30 or 50 miles. A real PITA (french term, that

Anyhow, joke aside, the residue leaves what appears to be a very thin 'sheen' ('glimmer'?) of a plastic like 'smear' on the electrode, obviously SLOWLY choking the spark to death as the electrode becomes more and more covered with the crap.

So, I expected to find the entire bowl filled with a solid resin lump. I did not. However, I can find that plastic-like sheen in areas headed into the manifolds. Same as the earlier pic of that crap running out of the 'ticklers' (I love THAT one, LAB!) Anyway, below I'll slap a shot. Don't know if you guys can see it well enough, but when I zoom in, you can see the stuff flaked up, looking like old, fractured PLASTIC sheeting. Not looking so good, suppose I may as well try to clean as much of that stuff out as I can. Here's the pic:



Oh, I think anyone really curious could follow the thread to photobucket, where I believe you can zoom in on the pic to your heart's content. Anyone seen the plastic-like residue I mention? The black tar substance (resins?) in liquid state sitting on the bottom of the fuel tank?

BOGUS: are those SS Allen bolts I see attaching your manifolds to the head?

Gary said:

BOGUS: are those SS Allen bolts I see attaching your manifolds to the head?

Click to expand...

They are indeed....I can't resist bling

Geez Gary, that's nasty. I'd be tempted to pull the head and take a Dremmel wire wheel to those intake ports. Have faith though, and think of how pretty the Commando motor can be..

Merry Christmas.

Andy: cannot blame you, looks nice. My father's bike has sat for so long... well, lots of
'minor' rust spots creeping in. You know, looks good from 10' away? But there's so much I have to learn, that the 'bling' will be way down the road. Currently, I'd just like to get some miles on it, and then keep learning MORE stuff, until I eventually decide to tear her down for a complete refurbishment.

Dave: whoa! Thanks. If we knew each other better, I'd have called you a name, so you'd have known I was envious, lol's!

The stuff is nasty. Truly, I honestly believe that what everyone is witnessing is one possibility of the future with regards the fiberglass tanks. Short term stateside, long term global. That is, I see the tank sealers as a 'temporary' band-aide while a real solution is researched. I'm saving up my nickels, currently, for a steel tank. If you're in N. America, keep in mind that my locale is one of only TWO in the States that mandate something called 'Reformulated' gas, or Re-gas. This is on top of the ethynol crap they force us to use. Not sure if the re-gas/ethy mix is worse, or not, but there'll only be more additives in the future. Just makes no damned sense to me to keep spending the time and money to re-seal the damned tank every... what?! Every 3 years? 4? Maybe every 5 years (which I seriously doubt). As is, with a sealed fiberglass tank, I swear to God, I'd install a quick drain valve in the fuel lines, open her up and drain the fuel out every time I was going to let her sit for more than 2-3 days. 'Course, you readers will have to keep in mind that all this is coming from someone with a nightmare of a failed sealer story...

Think of the positive side of it all: knowing that this stuff has gone through the combustion chamber... maybe I've got a really nice, thick seal on the top of the cylinder walls which makes this Norton have the best oil seals in the world, LOSL's (lots of SAD laughs).

Andy,
on your air cleaner backing plate the top angled bracket and frame gusset are separated by a small bush type spacer.
If it was missing you would never know to look for it. I was looking very closely, my over attention to detail sometimes,
at the 1972 parts exploded view on Old Britts site under the air box and there is a reference to this tiny bush.
You definitely need it as once you start to tighten the bolt and nut you will draw the bracket back too far distorting it before it is snugged up. It also keeps the top of the air box in rack.
Mine was gone or lost so I ordered it from Old Britts and it is correct now.
It looks like a bear to sneak between the air box bracket and frame. I used a magnet to set in place and the tension between the gusset and bracket surfaces retained the bush till I could get the bolt through same and secure w/ nut.
Probably way over explained this process as my son always complains I do such but I felt it better right than wrong.
Hope this was useful.
Merry Christmas everyone
Marshal
Rider of antiquated iron.

Gary,

I was fortunate not to have any pressing need to get the bike roadworthy - I've previously got bikes on the road and progressively improved them, which is the way to go if it's the only ride, but I decided to throw all the cash at it at once and get it over with this time. Fortunately my Wife's sympathetic and let me do this!

I just need to get the paintwork done and it's more or less finished - check my build thread (which needs updating!)
850mkiia-rebuild-underway-t5086.html

Marshal - thanks for the observation - you've got a sharp eye
LAB provded me with the MkI/IIA supplement, which doesn't show the spacer, so I'm guessing it's the same spacer as used with the 'regular' airbox. I'd originally fitted the bracket behind the frame gusset because of the rolled edge facing forwards - now it makes sense as to why a spacer is needed!
I'm guessing it isn't much thicker than 1/8"?

Looking forwards to getting the festivities over wth so I can get back into the ManCave, although I am rather enjoying my son's slot-car racing set