75 850 ES clutch

L.A.B. said:

click said:

I'll need to button everything up & start the bike or at least put it in gear, pull the clutch in & push the bike.

What I'll also try is put the clutch back on, pull the clutch in with the bike in gear & see if I can turn the rear wheel, this should be a true test to see if the clutch is grabbing.

Click to expand...

Or, as Grandpaul (I think?) mentioned, with the gearbox in neutral, and the clutch lever pulled in, if you operate the kickstarter, then all you should feel is the return spring tension?

Click to expand...

Hi L.A.B & the rest of the gang,

I put the clutch back on, all 10 plates, setup the clutch usual procedure AND I was able to turn the rear wheel by hand with the clutch pulled in & the bike in gear.

I was also able to nick the bike into neutral & pulled the clutch in & there was only the kickstart return spring pressure on the kickstart.

Unfortunantly I don't have a yardstick for judging if this is better as I did not do these tests beofre I stripped the clutch BUT if I can move the rear wheel by hand whilst in gear with the clutch pulled in I'm presuming when the bike is running I should not have major problems nicking into 1st gear & going back to neutral!

So a result, but I won't be a 100% sure until I button it all up & go for a blast, that won't happen till Sat or maybe Sunday.

I think this was a classic case of confusing myself & unfortunantly some of you :roll:

I'll take my time putting it all back together taking into account some of the extremly useful comments you have all given me regarding putting the clutch back together.

I'm off back to the garage.

Thanks for all your collective help. Hopefully my next post will be good news

Kevin

pvisseriii said:

L.A.B. said:

Or, as Grandpaul (I think?) mentioned, with the gearbox in neutral, and the clutch lever pulled in, if you operate the kickstarter, then all you should feel is the return spring tension?

Click to expand...

That is how I free the clutch when stuck. The engine itself should offer enough resistance to do the job

Click to expand...

When I had the bike running I tried slipping the clutch in gear to see if I could free it up but after 10 minutes of fiddling around I could still not nick the gear lever into neutral from 1st while the engine was running, once I stopped the engine there was no problem selecting neutral, hence the creation of this thread.

Kevin

Just remember that if you have the rear wheel up in the air and the gearbox in neutral, the rear wheel will turn. As long as you can easily stop the wheel with your hand or the bike doesn't move forward (when on both wheels) or you can select first gear... all is good.

click said:

When I had the bike running I tried slipping the clutch in gear to see if I could free it up but after 10 minutes of fiddling around I could still not nick the gear lever into neutral from 1st while the engine was running, once I stopped the engine there was no problem selecting neutral, hence the creation of this thread.

Click to expand...

If, by that, you mean the bike was stalling as you selected first gear, and if it still continues to do so, then I can only suggest you replace the clutch centre (and maybe try some Surflex or similar plates?). Although as you've now cleaned the plates that may effect a temporary cure?

click said:

Thanks for all your collective help. Hopefully my next post will be good news

Kevin

Click to expand...

I think this post is good news. Now an expert, soon to master.
We can't see it, smell it, hear it or feel it. All we can do is offer some sort of solution based on what you say. You are the you who does it all. And the hardest part is to be able to trust what people say even though they cannot see, hear, smell or fell anything that you are doing.

Great work, Click.

click said:

chris plant said:

hi click,i could be wrong here,but your way of testing for clutch drag is wrong{clutch pulled in bike in gear kickstart depressed}i think you,ll find that even with no clutch plates fitted,bike in gear depress kickstart and the back wheel will turn,could be wrong its been a while,best way is as swoosh said

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Hi Chris,

I might owe you an apology :roll:

I tested the clutch as L.A.B. suggested with the extra plain plate removed but it was still the same.

I then remembered what you had said & removed all the clutch plates & attempted the 'test' I was doing to see if the clutch plates where sticking (bike in gear, clutch pulled in, rear brake applied & kick the bike over) and guess what . . . . exactly the same, rear wheel moves under a lot of pressure from the kickstart!!!

Obviously the gearbox is directly connected through the front sprocket to the rear wheel via the chain when in gear regardless of the clutch.

It's what you where saying above, the test I've been doing is flawed.

The only true test is to put everything back together, start her up & see what happens!

As I said the 'test' I was doing gave the impression the clutch was grabbing but it cannot be the clutch when I've removed it!!

Silly mistake on my behalf.

Is my logic correct? Any comments?

Kevin

Click to expand...

hi click,no need to apologise to me mate,like all the other lads im just trying to help and they have given you much more good advice than i have,another thing that can effect gear selection is chain tension {primary and secondry} but if yours is a mk3 ,in theory if the automatic tensioner is workin ok then the primary chain should,nt be a problem

Hi Lads,

Minor update:

I've put everything back together, used some axle grease to help seal up the push rod tunnel, it will do until I get a clutch nut with a seal in it (one that fits!).

I'm going to wait 24hrs to let the silicone sealer I used on the primary chaincase gasket set good & proper. I'll pop some oil in on Sunday & start her up & see what happens :shock:

All the best

Kevin

click said:

I'm going to wait 24hrs to let the silicone sealer I used on the primary chaincase gasket set good & proper.

Click to expand...

If you've used the proper MkIII chaincase gasket, then silicone sealant shouldn't really be necessary at all, as, unlike the earlier models which have the rubber band, the MkIII primary cases are made of thicker alloy and the joint is fixed by screws around its periphery instead of a central nut, so it's less likely to warp, also the gasket faces are quite wide, so it isn't usually prone to leakage, and adding sealant will only give you the additional job of having to clean it all off again, if and when you split the case joint next time, and the gasket will probably tear as the joint is opened.

All I do is apply grease to the gasket, as then the joint can often be broken with no more than a tap or two from a mallet, and without any damage to the gasket, so it can often be re-used without any leakage occurring.

L.A.B. said:

click said:

I'm going to wait 24hrs to let the silicone sealer I used on the primary chaincase gasket set good & proper.

Click to expand...

If you've used the proper MkIII chaincase gasket, then silicone sealant shouldn't really be necessary at all, as, unlike the earlier models which have the rubber band, the MkIII primary cases are made of thicker alloy and the joint is fixed by screws around its periphery instead of a central nut, so it's less likely to warp, also the gasket faces are quite wide, so it isn't usually prone to leakage, and adding sealant will only give you the additional job of having to clean it all off again, if and when you split the case joint next time, and the gasket will probably tear as the joint is opened.

All I do is apply grease to the gasket, as then the joint can often be broken with no more than a tap or two from a mallet, and without any damage to the gasket, so it can often be re-used without any leakage occurring.

Click to expand...

Hi L.A.B.,

Thanks for the advice, the next time I take the cover off, in about 10 years :roll: , I'll try your method

I have a tendency to 'goo up' all my gaskets as I feel it does no harm as long as you are sparing with the 'goo'.

I have a few spare chaincase gaskets just in case!!

Roll on sunday

Kevin

Hello from Sunny Dublin, Ireland (yes the SUN is actually out :mrgreen: )

Well Lads first a BIG thank you to everybody on this board who gave me advise & put me straight on a few 'basic' matters of how a motorbike works (gearbox/clutch/kickstart combo!!!)

Had the Norton out just for a short couple of miles & the clutch is perfect, it nicks into gear like a modern bike & no problem finding neutral with the engine running.

How long this lasts is yet to be seen :roll: but at least I know everything else is working OK.

Summery of my findings:

1. The original problem was oil on the clutch plates causing them to stick together. Still not sure if gearbox oil is leaking from the gearbox to the primary chaincase through the clutch rod channel, future inspections will clear this up.

2. I put in 200ml of oil into the chaincase but nothing appeared from the level drain, I ended up putting in 375ml of oil in & it just started to drip out of the level drain (the bike was level etc.). The next time I drain the oil I'll know if any oil is leaking from the sump into the chaincase after it wet-sumps.

3. I have some wear on the centre splines but I think this wear is acceptable for the moment.

4. RGM Clutch nut with seal does NOT fit the Commando.

5. Need to put more miles on the bike so I can start to shake her down & allow us to get to know each other :mrgreen:

Once again many many thanks or as we say in Ireland 'Go raibh céad maith agaibh'

Slán

Kevin

p.s. If any of you lads are over this side of the pond from the US or cross over from the UK drop me an email, I'll have a pint of the 'Black Stuff' waiting for you!

click said:

The next time I drain the oil I'll know if any oil is leaking from the sump into the chaincase after it wet-sumps.

Click to expand...

The only way crankcase oil can get into the primary is through the crankshaft seal. Are you actually wetsumping or are you just looking for problems? :mrgreen:

Click,
For now keep a close look at the oil levels in the primary and the crank or you may find yourself pulling that cover and cleaning those plates sooner than you wish.
Regards,
Peter

swooshdave said:

click said:

The next time I drain the oil I'll know if any oil is leaking from the sump into the chaincase after it wet-sumps.

Click to expand...

The only way crankcase oil can get into the primary is through the crankshaft seal. Are you actually wetsumping or are you just looking for problems? :mrgreen:

Click to expand...

Hi swooshdave,

My Norton does wet sump, takes between 9 & 14 days to completely empty the oil tank into the sump, oil pump rebuild at some stage in the future!.

I don't mind emptying the sump & pouring it back into the oil tank every now & then.

All the best

Kevin

pvisseriii said:

Click,
For now keep a close look at the oil levels in the primary and the crank or you may find yourself pulling that cover and cleaning those plates sooner than you wish.
Regards,
Peter

Click to expand...

Hi Peter,

My 'new' regular pre-ride check will now include:

1. Drain the sump, pour back into oil tank.

2. Drain primary chaincase, check amount & re-fill.

Kevin

click said:

swooshdave said:

click said:

The next time I drain the oil I'll know if any oil is leaking from the sump into the chaincase after it wet-sumps.

Click to expand...

The only way crankcase oil can get into the primary is through the crankshaft seal. Are you actually wetsumping or are you just looking for problems? :mrgreen:

Click to expand...

Hi swooshdave,

My Norton does wet sump, takes between 9 & 14 days to completely empty the oil tank into the sump, oil pump rebuild at some stage in the future!.

I don't mind emptying the sump & pouring it back into the oil tank every now & then.

All the best

Kevin

Click to expand...

You may also want to look at refreshing the anti-drain valve in the timing cover. Tightening up the clearances in the oil pump also can't hurt.

Click,
If you see 100ml to 200ml when draining the crankcase, this is somewhat normal. If you ride regularly this measurement will be consistant. The real indicator will be when you let it set for a few days or so. On your model the only place I know the oil will build in the crankcase is through the oil pump. The pump wear at the sealpoint and gravity will bring oi,l as it usually does,to the pump and will slowly seep by. If you get to the point, you can search for "oil pump refurbishing" or start a new topic if needed.

As far as the primary goes, it is sort of on the same line. If your pushing oil out the crank seal, it will take awhile to be noticable. Unscrew the level plug while on the sidestand and let it set till it stops weeping. Mark the date and mileage on your calander. Ride for a few hundred km or so and then check it in the same manner as before, on the side stand. Log your reading for a while to determine if you have a serious enough problem to require further maintanence. In the mean time you can easily check your breather screen and foam filter, if it hasn't been removed already.
On the inspection cap on the gearbox, drill a 1/16' hole at the 12 oclock position next to the screw to allow for venting. This may help with lube getting past the greased up clutch rod.
Peter

pvisseriii said:

Click,
If you see 100ml to 200ml when draining the crankcase, this is somewhat normal. If you ride regularly this measurement will be consistant. The real indicator will be when you let it set for a few days or so. On your model the only place I know the oil will build in the crankcase is through the oil pump. If you get to the point, you can search for "oil pump refurbishing" or start a new topic if needed.
As far as the primary goes, it is sort of on the same line. If your pushing oli out the crank seal, it will take awhile to be noticable. Unscrew the level plug while on the side and let it set till it stops weeping. Mark the date and mileage on your calander. Ride for a few hundred km or so and then check it in the same manner as before, on the side stand. Log your reading for a while to determine if you have a serious enough problem to require further maintanence.
Peter

Click to expand...

You can't pump enough oil from the gearbox into the primary to measure. The worry is more about a little bit of gearbox oil contaminating the clutch plates.

swooshdave said:

pvisseriii said:

Click,
If you see 100ml to 200ml when draining the crankcase, this is somewhat normal. If you ride regularly this measurement will be consistant. The real indicator will be when you let it set for a few days or so. On your model the only place I know the oil will build in the crankcase is through the oil pump. If you get to the point, you can search for "oil pump refurbishing" or start a new topic if needed.
As far as the primary goes, it is sort of on the same line. If your pushing oli out the crank seal, it will take awhile to be noticable. Unscrew the level plug while on the side and let it set till it stops weeping. Mark the date and mileage on your calander. Ride for a few hundred km or so and then check it in the same manner as before, on the side stand. Log your reading for a while to determine if you have a serious enough problem to require further maintanence.
Peter

Click to expand...

You can't pump enough oil from the gearbox into the primary to measure. The worry is more about a little bit of gearbox oil contaminating the clutch plates.

Click to expand...

Hi swooshdave,

These are now on my to-do list! (oil pump & anti-drain valve)

Thanks

Kevin

pvisseriii said:

Click,
If you see 100ml to 200ml when draining the crankcase, this is somewhat normal. If you ride regularly this measurement will be consistant. The real indicator will be when you let it set for a few days or so. On your model the only place I know the oil will build in the crankcase is through the oil pump. The pump wear at the sealpoint and gravity will bring oi,l as it usually does,to the pump and will slowly seep by. If you get to the point, you can search for "oil pump refurbishing" or start a new topic if needed.

As far as the primary goes, it is sort of on the same line. If your pushing oil out the crank seal, it will take awhile to be noticable. Unscrew the level plug while on the sidestand and let it set till it stops weeping. Mark the date and mileage on your calander. Ride for a few hundred km or so and then check it in the same manner as before, on the side stand. Log your reading for a while to determine if you have a serious enough problem to require further maintanence. In the mean time you can easily check your breather screen and foam filter, if it hasn't been removed already.
On the inspection cap on the gearbox, drill a 1/16' hole at the 12 oclock position next to the screw to allow for venting. This may help with lube getting past the greased up clutch rod.
Peter

Click to expand...

Hi,

Just want to check something, when you normally check the primary chaincase level is it done on the sidestand or with the bike level on the center stand?

I plan on doing the oil checks above over the next few weeks just to get a 'feel' for what's going on with oil movement!

I've seen that posted before about the 1/16' hole in the gearbox inspection cover to relieve a bit of pressure, I think I have a small enough drill bit in my workshop (also known as a shed!)

Many thanks for the info. above.

Kevin

I believe a 15 degree lean to be ideal, but the side stand seems sufficient.