72 Combat identification

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jabberwocky

Joined
Aug 20, 2022
Messages
12
Country flag
I'm considering buying a 72 Combat. The current owner claims its original but the frame and engine do not match.
Is it possible the engine does not match due to warranty replacement?
Is there any way to find out?

Frame: 203877
Engine: 2?M3S/143353

Thanks,
M
 
Jabberwocky said:
I'm considering buying a 72 Combat. The current owner claims its original but the frame and engine do not match.
Is it possible the engine does not match due to warranty replacement?
Is there any way to find out?

Frame: 203877
Engine: 2?M3S/143353

Thanks,
M
Click to expand...
Look for the letter "C" attached under or close to the head steady..the M/ ? is a mystery to me also .....this may help https://www.norvilmotorcycle.co.uk/engrange.htm
 

Attachments

  • 72 Combat identification
    Screenshot_20220822-150422_Chrome.webp
    105.8 KB · Views: 141
The frame is in Combat range, the bike has disk brake, black barrel and the fins are closer together where head meets barrel.
I'm speculating the crankcase is a post catastrophe donor. Would that make sense?
 
Jabberwocky said:
The frame is in Combat range, the bike has disk brake, black barrel and the fins are closer together where head meets barrel.
I'm speculating the crankcase is a post catastrophe donor. Would that make sense?
Click to expand...
Very likely...does the gearbox number match the frame # ?
 
The reported Combat range is 200976 to 211110. Built from about Jan 1972 to about June - July. 72. Not all engines were combat spec. The C on the head is an identifier.

Your frame 203877 is probably April 72 and is in this range.

However the engine no. 143353 is not in this range and dates about Jan 71. A year before Combats were built. It is therefore a replacement engine or at least crankcase. The motor could of course have been built to Combat spec with a Combat head.

I have taken this info from a very large spreadsheet created by Thomas Hannam. It is over 10,900 lines long with about 8000 lines for Commandos. I'd guess he has info on about 6000 Commando. It can be found under the data tab of the Norton Commando Facebook page. I certainly agree Facebook is very unreliable but this spreadsheet is an extraordinary amount of work and is good.
 
Last edited:
My '72 is (was) an early Combat. The engine number is higher than the number on the frame. The head has a "C" stamp.
I just assumed that the original engine blew up from having pre-C speck main bearings and ridden by an owner that beat it up regularly, can't say.

Life goes on. The engine number in the picture, I believe, may have been on a 750 Atlas era Norton up to the 1971 Commando model year; specific serial numbers don't matter to me unless I'm ordering parts.

If you really want a matching numbers Combat, they are out there, but unless you trust the seller, I wouldn't, any English motorcycle you consider should get a real hard looking over and be a candidate for top to bottom rebuild.


Best.
 
Jabberwocky said:
Is it possible the engine does not match due to warranty replacement?


Frame: 203877
Engine: 2?M3S/143353
Click to expand...

Warranty replacement cases would have been supplied with no number (so could be stamped to match the original) and extremely unlikely warranty replacements would have been earlier 'numbered' 20M3S/14xxxx specification cases that should have the timed camshaft breather instead of the '2' series rear case breather.

Jabberwocky said:
Is there any way to find out?
Click to expand...

Either the UK NOC, VMCC or Andover Norton could possibly tell you what Commando '143353' (frame, engine and gearbox) actually was.
 
Jabberwocky said:
I'm considering buying a 72 Combat. The current owner claims its original but the frame and engine do not match.
Is it possible the engine does not match due to warranty replacement?
Is there any way to find out?

Frame: 203877
Engine: 2?M3S/143353

Thanks,
M
Click to expand...
Why would you worry about it?
 
Well its not original but at least it has been repaired using 2nd hand donor cases from an earlier bike. As long as the price reflects that and you are happy then go ahead. But as the owner is saying its original then the price maybe too high, in which case like buses, another one will turn up.
 
kommando said:
Well its not original but at least it has been repaired using 2nd hand donor cases from an earlier bike. As long as the price reflects that and you are happy then go ahead. But as the owner is saying its original then the price maybe too high, in which case like buses, another one will turn up.
Click to expand...
This.
"Original"..... yet the case #'s don't match. You, OP, are in the presence of a person with persuasive skills.
 
....and WELCOME Jabberwocky. You have come to the right place for in depth information.
As an aside,
The first Commando I looked at to buy had engine cases welded together, 1/2" wide TIG beads visible all around the crankcase.
30 minutes of Q&A, discussion, he never mentioned it. As a lifelong fabricator, it's the FIRST thing I noticed. The fact that he did not mention it was very telling.
I quietly moved on, and made no mention of the visible repair.
 
  • Like
Reactions: baz
My Commando a ‘72 was # 207384 all 3 numbers matching , was a Combat with no visible C stamped where it should have been , just to add to the ongoing discussion …
 
baz said:
Why would you worry about it?
Click to expand...
Mostly because the bike is being advertised as "not restored, true survivor". Strictly speaking it does not say that it is original nor does it mention matching numbers or anything about an engine rebuild.

The gearbox number is 149160 (I think). Curiouser and curiouser.

The owner states it has original paint and factory Dunstall pipes. My guess is it blew up and was rebuilt.

So the question comes to what is it worth? I really don't mind that the numbers don't match so long as it's been repaired well, but the way it's being pitched I think it's overpriced.

Regardless, it will need to be torn down unless build receipts are available.

I will not get a chance to see the bike in person as it's too far away. There are just enough inconsistencies that I think the fair weather course is to quietly back out of the room, give my head a shake and grab a pint.

As Kommando says "another one will turn up".

Thanks for the insight.


baz said:
Why would you worry about it?
Click to expand...
 
So, if it were in the US and had a clear US title, I would pay about $4500 USD for it delivered assuming I saw a video of it running and at least minimally riding and if there is little to no rust. Without the ability to register it, max $3000 delivered (would part it out). As a rider, none of it matters, but a Heinz 57 does not sell well no matter how pretty.
 
What number is on the title/registration or whatever it is called there in the VIN part of the form? In the vast majority of cases in the US, it is the engine number which, of course, is supposed to match the Certification Label (red label), and the gearbox.
 
The bike is in Manitoba, Canada. Offered for $8,000 CDN OBO. $6,100 US
The current owner sent me a video of him riding it, so I'm confident it runs.

Cheers
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

P
Handlebar Identification - Number stampings - Who made these?
Replies
3
Views
264
kommando
kommando
Fuckthetrolls
Commando Camshaft identification...
Replies
3
Views
326
toppy
T
johnny Lagdon
Gear Identification
Replies
7
Views
614
mdt-son
M
Mensch
Combat 2s Cam identification
2 3
Replies
59
Views
3,506
worntorn
W
ILLF8ED
‘72 combat main jets
2 3
Replies
41
Views
2,158
acotrel
acotrel
Back
Top