69' BSA Rocket 3 Oil pump

I need to pick your collective minds with my dilemma. This winter I had to replace the transmission main shaft seal & bearing. In doing so you have to take the entire primary apart to get at the bearing & seal. In the process I removed the oil pump. I didn't remove the drive gear as it all came out together I did replace the 2 o-ring seals as I did all gaskets & seals.
Everything went back together nicely and I parked it for the winter. I added one quart of oil when parked knowing it would wet sump eventually.
So now fast forward 4 months and I fuel her up, top off the oil, charge battery tickle me carby's and 3 kicks she comes to life. As I watch for the oil to return to the tank knowing I would have to top it off a minute or two goes by and nothing is splashing back in the tank ??? My primary and crankcase had plenty of oil in it so I wasn't too worried except for the fact none of the oil was returning to the tank.
I drained everything again took the primary apart and for the life of me can't find anything wrong? The pump can only go in one way and i didnt' disturb the gasket.
I have checked the anti-drain valve ball and it's clean and not stuck and I also removed the feed & return hoses to the oil cooler and poured oil in them to maybe prime the system? Still nothing,,,,,,, your thoughts?

TIA,
Tim_S

You may have a blockage on the return oil feed system somewhere, either on the return pipe, or before the oil pump, which is probably more likely.
I have not heard of the oil pump requiring priming on this model, it is usually done on the feed side.

You are sure you have the hoses connected to the proper pipes?

You can spin the pump without running the engine, you could attach in and out
lines separate from the oil tank and see if it sucks and blows so to speak.
Start from square one and carefully check each component.

I hadn't touched the hoses up to this point. Then it was suggested to pour some oil into the pipes so I did. Still nothing. I guess I'll have to pull the hoses and see what I can find. In fact the old herring bone hoses are real cracked on the surface and it might take some tugging to get them off if they don't crumble on me.
I'll report back next week.

Tim_S

Hoses that are that deteriorated may, in fact, be plugged up.

Ok,,,,,,,,, back at the ranch once again. I took off all the oil lines and the oil cooler and flushed everything out. There was a little rusty milky oil in the cooler and I replaced one return line. Because the two big cooler lines appeared to have very little oil in them I pulled the rocker covers and squirted about a pint all over the parts. I then pulled the filter out of the bottom of the oil tank to check for any blockage. drained the tank the best I could and then poured oil back into the tank for another startup. It didn't take long before the tank was empty but still nothing returning to the tank. Now with the crankcase full the breather spit out a fair amount for the first time and The mess had to be cleaned up. I'm still stumped.??

Tim_S

Take the lines off. Can you pump anything out the outflow pipe
before it even goes up the return rubber hose?

Blow air in each section of hose, not line air . Dont
over pressure the oil cooler for heavens sake!


You can spin the pump by removing the idle gear. If it is sucking but not
returning you have either a duff return gearset of a blockage. Blockage
more likely. Pulling the pump is easy usually. Pull it out and break it down and
inspect. Likely it is good but you have to know it not guess.
Put in the return orifice and see if you get a good flow. Put a towel over
the return pipe so you dont repaint your shop with 20/50!

If the sump plate is fitted back to front it can block off the scavenge pickup. The plate must be positioned so the finned end is to the front.

Tomorrow I'll drain the crankcase once again and then take the primary apart to inspect the pump. Messy job !
The sump plate is correctly installed. With the bottom end full of oil I should have gotten some oil return even if it was backwards. I always put the screen on first before the sump plate and if you did manage to reverse it,,, the plate doesn't fit tight and you know right away when your fresh oil runs out. Ask me how I know ,,,
There may be an air bubble in the system that is being stubborn,,who knows........until tomorrow :roll:

Tim_S

Tim_S said:

With the bottom end full of oil I should have gotten some oil return even if it was backwards.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily, I know of several instances of "scavenge oil failing to return to the tank" problems on the Triples Online forum http://www.triplesonline.com/forum/ were subsequently found to be the result of the sump plate (not the strainer) having been fitted backwards, so I would suggest you double check this if you haven't already done so.

Edit: One other possible cause would be if the holes in the pump gasket have not been punched out correctly.

Another day ,,,,another mess to clean up.
I pulled the pump again and spun it in my hand and oil squirts out. Now granted I can't spin it as fast as the motor can but it did spit back at me. I remove the bottom plate on the pump and the gears look Ok. The oil filter chamber has a fair amount of oil in it. I blew air through all the lines again while they were disconnected and once with the cooler intact. I back feed the oil return line again with a squirt can using about a half quart. I let gravity do it's thing... One thing I did notice is the oil tank with empty out on it's own in about a half hour or less.?? The anti-sump valve was checked again to. The sump plate is in the correct position after checking for a second time. When it's all said and done the bottom end is full with none feeding the top end....

L.A.B. ,,,,,,,,I'm the same guy on the triple forum with this issue.


Tim_S

Tim_S said:

One thing I did notice is the oil tank with empty out on it's own in about a half hour or less.??

Click to expand...

Was that with the pump removed, or fitted?

If the pump was removed, then the oil tank will empty quickly, the anti-drain valve would also have no effect as it's "downstream" of the pump. If however, the tank drained down in half an hour with the pump in position then something definitely isn't right.

Tim_S said:

L.A.B. ,,,,,,,,I'm the same guy on the triple forum with this issue.

Click to expand...

I'm watching your thread on the Britbike triple forum, but the vast majority of triple owners tend to use the Triples Online forum.

http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/Repair/Repair.htm
click on trident you will download the factory shop book, go to
lube section there is a good diagram and you can then follow each
link of the scavange system and blow air thru each section to
be absolutely sure there is no blockage.

Pump has two side the feed and the scavange. Make sure the spitting is both sides.
Spin the pump in situ, remove the rubber hoses and see that you are pumping out.
Put a hose on the infeed and put the hose in a container of oil and see if it pumps it
out. If it is pumping into the crank and not back and you dont have a return hose on then the
go backwards from there to the pump and find out where the blockage is. There is
a blockage somewhere if the scavange side pumps. Check inside the pump bore housing
and make sure none of the holes are plugged, sometimes people use gasket cement on
the pump gasket and this can block the hole(s).
It needs to be able to suck oil from the sump into the pump and out back
up to the tank.

THis pump worked fine last summer. No other part of the system had been touched prior to the removal of the pump before I took the primary apart . I do have the official shop manual already with that nice diagram of the lubrication system. The tank drains fast with the pump in place. I have removed the pump for inspection and found nothing. The gasket hasn't been touched either. I thought about trying to remove it but I'm going to leave well enough alone. I have sent the pump to a 3 cylinder guy to check the gear clearances and have him reface the gears to the proper tolerance. He has done this to his racer triple and is a trained machinist. You may have heard of www.triplesrule.com ?? Mr. Brown is a friend of mine.

L.A.B. ,,,,,,,,I log in to the britbike forum under the triple icon. Is this not correct?


Tim_S

Tim_S said:

L.A.B. ,,,,,,,,I log in to the britbike forum under the triple icon. Is this not correct?

Click to expand...

Yes, it's correct for BritBike but perhaps you misunderstood? BSA/Triumph triple owners and enthusiasts tend to use the Triples Online forum and not the triples section of the Britbike forum, so there's a better chance of you finding an answer to this problem at Triples Online.

http://www.triplesonline.com/ > Forum

The symptoms you've described (oil tank drains quickly with the pump in position, scavenge doesn't clear the sump) seems to point to leakage in the area of the pump joint-as if the pump is not seating correctly against the gasket.

Pat Brown could probably sort it in 10 minutes. Best to carry it over to
him for a look-see

Below are Pat's finding's with my pump issue.........It's good to know people in the know don't you know :roll:

,,,Tim_S
OMG! I got the pump apart except for the gear and spindle. The supply side of the pump has .0275" clearance between the end plate and the gear faces! Yes, you read that right, twenty-seven and a half thousandths. I re-read Phil Pick's article (see link http://www.triples.co.uk/ written articles-oil pump) about oil pumps and it looks like I need to remove about .0265 from the pump body. I don't even know how this made any pressure. There are no etchings on the pump body so maybe this is a "pattern" pump.

The scavenge side has .0037 end clearance so it's a little loose too.

I need to remove the spindle from the body to measure the depth of the chamber in the body and also to measure the thickness of the spindle gear. I will make a tool to remove the fixing screw.

Well there you go , inspect each segment of the problem.
But you said it was running happily last year with no intervention
since. What happened?

Tim_S said:

The supply side of the pump has .0275" clearance between the end plate and the gear faces! Yes, you read that right, twenty-seven and a half thousandths. I re-read Phil Pick's article (see link http://www.triples.co.uk/ written articles-oil pump) about oil pumps and it looks like I need to remove about .0265 from the pump body. I don't even know how this made any pressure. There are no etchings on the pump body so maybe this is a "pattern" pump.

The scavenge side has .0037 end clearance so it's a little loose too.

Click to expand...

Whilst the obviously excessive amount of end float on the feed side of the pump could be partially responsible for the oil rapidly draining down from the tank, the anti-drain valve should still have significantly reduced the rate of drainage and I can't see that the relatively small amount of end float on the scavenge side would have been enough to prevent oil from returning to the tank, and after all, that was the initial problem.