4ls front brake

I had to choke in my tea when i saw the price of this Manx 4ls front brake;

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Summ ... 242011.pdf

Pretty much the same price as one from Andy Molnar

That is cheap if you wish to ride in a race class which requires it. The truth is however that it only contributes to appearance, and a single disc is more effective and safer. I suggest event organisers should consider what they are trying to provide - good safe racing, or a nostalgia trip ? Drum brakes and pudding basin helmets have killed a lot of good riders.

Bernhard said:

I had to choke in my tea when i saw the price of this Manx 4ls front brake;

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Summ ... 242011.pdf

Click to expand...

"The backing plates have an appearance which is very close to the factory item. The only minor difference being the addition
of small bosses that protrude discreetly from the plates behind the levers to house needle roller brake spindle bearings instead
of original specification bushes"

In other words, it's not a Manx brake, it's a replica.

It is not purported to be a Manx brake, It says 'Manx Style' and there are other references in the text to the fact that it is a replica. It is a lot of money though.

I think I can comment on this given I actually own one

Firstly.

Are you sure the title of this thread is correct?

Greg is selling a wheel - not a brake.

The distinction is important - not only for price comparisons but it tells you the brake has been spoked to a good rim, with the correct spoke material specification. The drum has also been trued and accurately dressed after spoking. Greg is actually very reluctant to sell a brake on its own because he understands the performance has as much to do with set up as the original design. I dont remember the exact number but Greg told me that there is well over $1000 worth of third party parts in this wheel before he lifts a finger.

Next thing is yes - it is a replica. Greg can either choose not to say this or tell his customers what they are getting. He chose to tell the truth. He looked at all the "Manx brakes" he could find in Australia and noted a great many differences in all the brakes. This one is a lot closer to the original than most.

Last thing - " Drum brakes and pudding basin helmets have killed a lot of good riders"

This drum brake will not kill the rider. The needle roller bearings are just one of several internal improvements which means this brake can be used well into the corner with an extremly high level of control. This is not your average 4LS brake. Ask Chris and Bill Swallow. They have both used it.

Some people buy poor quality parts and get poor outcomes.

This wheel is unashamably aimed a small market competing in specific classes with tight rules (no discs). It is a top end product with a top end price. If that doesnt suit you buy something else.

And I can assure you knowing Greg, knowing how he lives and works he is not making millions out of these products. He is one of the increasingly small number of real engineers left whose first priority is doing excellent work on racing focused machines. When he finished the first of his JAP motors he was too broke to go out and buy a belt to connect the gearbox so he could test the motor out ! He drives a 20 year old Landcruiser and spends his time in his workshop or at a track. His only luxury is his dog

Shees - why is this NZer saying nice things about a damn Ozzie !!!! Must go and find a good joke to put them back in their place

Regards

John

grandpaul said:

In other words, it's not a Manx brake, it's a replica.

Click to expand...

Not in other words: in Eurospares' own words.

Manx Norton Works Style ..........

External appearance1 very similar to 1962 Manx Norton works specification

Click to expand...

Anything you make today, for a Manx, is a replica.

My mistake, the wording is careful.

Still a very niche market piece!

acotrel said:

That is cheap if you wish to ride in a race class which requires it. The truth is however that it only contributes to appearance, and a single disc is more effective and safer. I suggest event organisers should consider what they are trying to provide - good safe racing, or a nostalgia trip ? Drum brakes and pudding basin helmets have killed a lot of good riders.

Click to expand...

I think you're lucky that a drum brake manufacturer hasn't taken you to court by now!

Their are millions of drum brakes in constant use on this planet. I'm not aware of them reducing the population headcount sigificantly.

Even if we stick to the current histroic motorcycle racing world, hunderds if not thousands of riders race drum brakes every single weekend somewhere in the world.

If you have evidence that drum brakes cause a stasitically sigifincantly greater number of deaths in modern histroic racing than any other specific cause, I would very much like to see it.

I would suggest that the most likely thing they are guilty of causing is slightly lower lap times.

And I'd also suggest that anyone who wants to put a top end drum brake like this one on a histroic racer, or their P&J cafe racer, that they can pretty confidently do so without any reasonably increased fear of sudden death.

I didn't think it was a 'top end' price'. I think it is quite reasonable. When I built my Seeley back in about 1978, a friend bought a drum brake for a Triton which was specially made so he could compete in the Period 3 historic class, and it cost around $3500 and he had to wait quite a long time for it to be made. At the time he had his son on a superbike, however racing the Triton cost him more - around $40,000 per annum. He won the championship a few times, however you have to wonder. These days I don't ride bikes with drum brakes. For many years I raced with a 7R AJS brake, and the only time I copped an injury was because of it. I still get pain from that. With my Seeley, I can grab a handful of front brake and know it is reliable and will not crash me, and it stops the bike like hitting a wall. If you are racing that is how it had to be. Back in the 70s I regularly rode in races against disc braked bikes - a drum braked bike is behind the 8 ball. With the bike I had, you needed to ride your ring off, and the drum brake made it all too difficult. I think I've been off 3 times at over 100 MPH because of the drum brake, and two of those get-offs really had the potential to kill. If there is an alternative race class where you can use a disc, go there !

With needle bearings on the shafts and roller bearings on the cams and low bite linings, I'm sure it works perfectly. Those needles & rollers fix the only real problem with a 4LS.

Yeah ultimately a modern disc brake is better. We know that. After decades of development It better be!
I too took a bad fall because a 320 Fontana wouldn't release when I needed it to.

What a beautiful piece, likely the pinnacle of the technology.
Well worth the price considering what you get - pre built, laced, trued, the drum arc'd, ready to roll, the low production numbers, and the love involved in creating it.

Bitchin' piece. Bravo.

I agree, the item advertised is a work of art, however I'm not being funny about drum brakes. It is easy to have a bad crash with one, and that can finish your racing career. Nearly every get-off I've ever had, has been caused by one. With my Seeley 850, I go nowhere near crashing. If the race organisers can be persuaded to allow a single disc as well as drum brakes, that must be a better answer. It troubles me that young inexperienced riders can get loose with drum brakes, it is so easy to go wrong when setting them up. With a disc brake, the ways go can go wrong are much more limited. The other thing is where do you get the decent linings for motorcycle drum brakes these days - the asbestos has been replaced and that creates a problem ?

Aco, you old commies are always trying to ban something!
And you always have the moral high ground of course.....safety.....
I'd be pretty pissed off if I'd been racing on drums for forty years, then someone decided to ban it, so they could feel good about themselves and force their OPINION on everyone else.