2019 Norton Commando 961 won't start

commando8501

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Jul 31, 2017
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My Commando has been running great for the last few months until yesterday when I encounted a starting problem. On pressing the start switch the engine turned over momentarily and then went dead. The current symptoms are that I have power to the lights and dials, but no engine management light and the engine will not turn over. The fuel pump is not priming. So far I have carried out the following checks gleamed from advice on this website but to no avail:

The battery is new and produces enough power to turn over the engine if I bypss the starter system and power up the soleniod directly.
3 fuses under the tank are all working.
The mini fuses in the rear are all working.
The two Bosch relays under the tank and the two Bosch ones at the rear have been checked with a brand new relay. I have also checked the resistance on each relay and tested each one is clicking when slaved into the main beam relay.
The clutch switch is working.
The side stand switch is working.
With ignition on there is 12v to the black/green wire on the fuel pump connector but its not priming
All the ignition wires are showing 12v when ignition is switched on.
There is continiuty between the red/white wire from the soleniod to Relay R1
The starter button works when pressed
The tilt switch tested ok as I tried it on my Triumph motorcycle.
The kill switch works as when pressed it all power to the dials is killed. I am confused by this as when the kill switch is off the two blue wires and black wires have continuity and the black/yellow wire doesn't. When the kill switch is pressed all wires have continuity and the power is killed. However the black/yellow wire just seems to go into the headlamp shell and is a bullet connector that doesn't connect to anything else. Is this correct?

Unfortunately I do not have a wiring diagram and have now run out of ideas and hope there is someone who can advise me on further fault diagnosis?
 
I have access to a Euro 4 wiring schematic , hopefully close to what you have .

Start with checking that when you turn on the ignition key that you get 12 V to pin 3 (orange wire) of the start relay/crank time lights off relay R1 under tank . This should pass 12v to the starter solenoid from pin 2 white/red wire when the relay actuates . Also when the ignition key is turned on this should also supply 12v via white/red wire to fuse F5 and this should feed the clutch lever switch via white/yellow wire. The clutch lever switch when pulled in will pass the 12v to the start button switch via the grey/white wire . And finally the start button will pass the 12v via the yellow/red wire to pin 2 of the start relay which should actuate and pass 12v to the starter solenoid. The start relay gets a low 0v to pin 1 of the relay coil from the ECU pin 9 violet/white wire. Without this low 0 v to the start relay coil it won't pull in of course. So start with this and see what you find and report back. Hopefully the Euro4 shematic I have is the one for your bike.
 
Seem to remember a posting a while ago where the clutch microswitch had been damaged - possibly when cleaning? Fuses definitely ok - stories of them falling apart internally?
 
Clive said:
Seem to remember a posting a while ago where the clutch microswitch had been damaged - possibly when cleaning? Fuses definitely ok - stories of them falling apart internally?
Click to expand...
But that won't keep the fuel pump from priming though
 
commando8501 said:
My Commando has been running great for the last few months until yesterday when I encounted a starting problem. On pressing the start switch the engine turned over momentarily and then went dead. The current symptoms are that I have power to the lights and dials, but no engine management light and the engine will not turn over. The fuel pump is not priming. So far I have carried out the following checks gleamed from advice on this website but to no avail:

The battery is new and produces enough power to turn over the engine if I bypss the starter system and power up the soleniod directly.
3 fuses under the tank are all working.
The mini fuses in the rear are all working.
The two Bosch relays under the tank and the two Bosch ones at the rear have been checked with a brand new relay. I have also checked the resistance on each relay and tested each one is clicking when slaved into the main beam relay.
The clutch switch is working.
The side stand switch is working.
With ignition on there is 12v to the black/green wire on the fuel pump connector but its not priming
All the ignition wires are showing 12v when ignition is switched on.
There is continiuty between the red/white wire from the soleniod to Relay R1
The starter button works when pressed
The tilt switch tested ok as I tried it on my Triumph motorcycle.
The kill switch works as when pressed it all power to the dials is killed. I am confused by this as when the kill switch is off the two blue wires and black wires have continuity and the black/yellow wire doesn't. When the kill switch is pressed all wires have continuity and the power is killed. However the black/yellow wire just seems to go into the headlamp shell and is a bullet connector that doesn't connect to anything else. Is this correct?

Unfortunately I do not have a wiring diagram and have now run out of ideas and hope there is someone who can advise me on further fault diagnosis?
Click to expand...
I would also check the back of the relay blocks, as the wiring has been known to pull out.

When you say the starter button works, does that mean it's sending 12v to the solenoid or just continuity?

The starter and fuel pumps are on separate relays, so you have a common power issue if they are both not working.
 
City Garage said:
I would also check the back of the relay blocks, as the wiring has been known to pull out.

When you say the starter button works, does that mean it's sending 12v to the solenoid or just continuity?

The starter and fuel pumps are on separate relays, so you have a common power issue if they are both not working.
Click to expand...
Hi Lance , I was just trying to demonstrate what needs to happen when the start button is pushed. Hopefully this can help lead to the issue . Of course your help and advice is always appreciated . 👍
 
Thank you all for your help and advice. I have now got a copy of the schematic and have started the Fault finding as per TonyA,s instructions.

I have 12v at the R1 relay orange wire but no output to Red/white wire at the relay when clutch puller in and starter pressed. I have checked the relay R1 works by swapping it with the R3 headlight relay.
I have 12v to red/white wire at the fuse F5 and have checked the fuse is ok and there is 12v coming out of the otherside on the white/yellow wire.
The white yellow wire has 12v in the headlamp shell and when the lever is pulled in there is 12v at the grey /white wire.
When the starter button is pressed there is 12v at the yellow/red wire at relay R1. When the starter button is not pressed there is 2.5 volts on this yellow red wire.
When the starter is pressed the violet/white wire from the ecu pin 9 DOES NOT drop to 0v but remains at 2.5v which is why the starter relay R1 is not pulling in. I have also checked the continuity of the violet and white wire from the ECU to the R1 relay.
I have not looked into the fuel pump not kicking in issue yet as maybe the two are linked.

I look forward to your reply and keeping my fingers crossed that its not an ECU fault
 
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TonyA said:
Hi Lance , I was just trying to demonstrate what needs to happen when the start button is pushed. Hopefully this can help lead to the issue . Of course your help and advice is always appreciated . 👍
Click to expand...
Your reply was all good my reply was directly to his post ;)
 
commando8501 said:
Thank you all for your help and advice. I have now got a copy of the schematic and have started the Fault finding as per TonyA,s instructions.

I have 12v at the R1 relay orange wire but no output to Red/white wire at the relay when clutch puller in and starter pressed. I have checked the relay R1 works by swapping it with the R3 headlight relay.
I have 12v to red/white wire at the fuse F5 and have checked the fuse is ok and there is 12v coming out of the otherside on the white/yellow wire.
The white yellow wire has 12v in the headlamp shell and when the lever is pulled in there is 12v at the grey /white wire.
When the starter button is pressed there is 12v at the yellow/red wire at relay R1. When the starter button is not pressed there is 2.5 volts on this yellow red wire.
When the starter is pressed the violet/white wire from the ecu pin 9 DOES NOT drop to 0v but remains at 2.5v which is why the starter relay R1 is not pulling in. I have also checked the continuity of the violet and white wire from the ECU to the R1 relay.
I have not looked into the fuel pump not kicking in issue yet as maybe the two are linked.

I look forward to your reply and keeping my fingers crossed that its not an ECU fault
Click to expand...
Have you checked all your grounds ? Just be sure the ground cables are tight , on mine the main frame ground is under my seat by the air box and motor ground is behind the cylinder barrel.

The Ignition relay R2 has to actuate to get 12v to F6 this will then feed 12v to the fuel pump . The ignition relay pin2 BR wire comes from ECU pin 5 . And the ECU pin 29 Black/green wire controls when the fuel pump comes on to pin 4 of pump BG wire.
 
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commando8501 said:
However the black/yellow wire just seems to go into the headlamp shell and is a bullet connector that doesn't connect to anything else. Is this correct?
Click to expand...
The black/yellow wire shows as being the low fuel warning light going into the speedo cluster on the schematic . This comes from ECU pin 12 .
 
commando8501 said:
My Commando has been running great for the last few months until yesterday when I encounted a starting problem. On pressing the start switch the engine turned over momentarily and then went dead. The current symptoms are that I have power to the lights and dials, but no engine management light and the engine will not turn over. The fuel pump is not priming. So far I have carried out the following checks gleamed from advice on this website but to no avail:

The battery is new and produces enough power to turn over the engine if I bypss the starter system and power up the soleniod directly.
3 fuses under the tank are all working.
The mini fuses in the rear are all working.
The two Bosch relays under the tank and the two Bosch ones at the rear have been checked with a brand new relay. I have also checked the resistance on each relay and tested each one is clicking when slaved into the main beam relay.
The clutch switch is working.
The side stand switch is working.
With ignition on there is 12v to the black/green wire on the fuel pump connector but its not priming
All the ignition wires are showing 12v when ignition is switched on.
There is continiuty between the red/white wire from the soleniod to Relay R1
The starter button works when pressed
The tilt switch tested ok as I tried it on my Triumph motorcycle.
The kill switch works as when pressed it all power to the dials is killed. I am confused by this as when the kill switch is off the two blue wires and black wires have continuity and the black/yellow wire doesn't. When the kill switch is pressed all wires have continuity and the power is killed. However the black/yellow wire just seems to go into the headlamp shell and is a bullet connector that doesn't connect to anything else. Is this correct?

Unfortunately I do not have a wiring diagram and have now run out of ideas and hope there is someone who can advise me on further fault diagnosis?
Click to expand...
Any news about your problem , and success ?
 
Hi Tony A. Sorry about the delay in answering but I've been busy out enjoying the rare British sun on my other bike.

I took your advice and looked into the earths, fuel pump connections and R2 ignition relay.

Both earth points seem to be good and the two black wires on the fuel pump connector are earthed..

on relay R2 when ignition is off there is 12v to the brown wire and no volts to the other 3 wires. When I turn the ignition on Br is 12v, YW is 12v, BR is 12v and Green/ Yellow is 2.5v. In summary the relay is not clicking and there is no voltage change across the relay coil between the B/R and W/Y whilst the output from the relay to GY changes to 2.5v. I have tried 3 different relays in R2 and they all do the same. This 2.5v on G/Y also occurs at fuse F6 and F3. Is this 2.5v correct or should it be 12v? Looking at the schematic for relay R2 I would have thought that GY should be 12v from the Br wire when the coil in the relay actuates.
 
At R2 relay F5 brings in 12v via WY wire , and BR wire from ECU pin 5 should go low 0v . There needs to be 12v across the relay coil of R2 pin1 BR to pin2 WY wire. Pins 23 and 40 of ECU should be tied to earth ground ( - battery ) .
>>>
Focus next on the ECU power down relay R4 at the back . Fuse F1 should supply 12v to both V and V wires at this relay,. When R4 pulls in this should pass 12v from V to R wire and supply the speedo and tacho with 12v . While also supplying ECU pin 21 with needed 12 v . For this to happen ECU pin 36 YR wire needs to supply a low (0v) for 12v across the coil V to YR .

I hope you had a good ride on your other bike. What is your other bike ? I have a Harley Sportster and a Kawasaki too .
 
Hi TonyA

At Relay F5 there is 12v at wire wy and BR remains at 12v and doesn't go to zero. At relay R2 there is 12v at W/Y and B/R (there is 12v at Br and 2.5v at G/Y.
ECU Pin 23 and 40 are tied to earth
At relay R4 both V wires are 12v and relay pulls R wire so tacho and speedo are on. Y/R reads 0.46v . ECU pin 21 has 12v as does R wire at pin 8

I also noted that R4 red wire is tied to earth with ECU connected and disconnected,and I wondered if this is correct

My other bike is a 1960 dominator slimline 99, that is great as I can fight my around the electrics, and a new Triumph Tiger sport 660 that is also great as its under warranty.


/
 
commando8501 said:
I also noted that R4 red wire is tied to earth with ECU connected and disconnected,and I wondered if this is correct
Click to expand...
No , I don't think it should be tied to ground. It should not be a dead short maybe 1K ohm or more through the speedo 1k pull up resistor ? It appears that the ECU power down relay is working, which is good. Is the R wire 12v on R4 relay getting to ECU pin 21 ? Just be sure , you can prick the wire if necessary close to the ECU plug pin 21 . I see you said R wire at ECU pin 21 has 12v. If you haven't already done so , go over all the other measurements again to be sure. It seems that the ECU is preventing you from starting the bike . How close are you to Stu Bodycote ?
 
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Hi Tony A

There is conituity between red wire and pin 21 on the ECU and relay R4 but I'm not sure about 12 volts as its difficult to get a probe in the rear end of the ECU plug. Luckily I'm a couple of 100 miles from Stu and have used him before. I'm a bit past the level of my skill set now so I'm going to contact him and see if he can sort it. I'm glad I did the basic fault diagnosis so I think we can rule out the simpler components and I'll leave it up to the expert. I'll go through the work I've done and come up with a synopsis of what's not working.

On the plus side my 1960 Slimline was the oldest bike on the Swansea 2023 Distinguished Gentlemans ride and made it round with honours.

Thanks again for your help and I'll keep you updated.
 
commando8501 said:
Hi Tony A

There is conituity between red wire and pin 21 on the ECU and relay R4 but I'm not sure about 12 volts as its difficult to get a probe in the rear end of the ECU plug. Luckily I'm a couple of 100 miles from Stu and have used him before. I'm a bit past the level of my skill set now so I'm going to contact him and see if he can sort it. I'm glad I did the basic fault diagnosis so I think we can rule out the simpler components and I'll leave it up to the expert. I'll go through the work I've done and come up with a synopsis of what's not working.

On the plus side my 1960 Slimline was the oldest bike on the Swansea 2023 Distinguished Gentlemans ride and made it round with honours.

Thanks again for your help and I'll keep you updated.
Click to expand...
There are sharp probes that you can use to pierce the wire insulation where it enters the ECU to measure the 12V . We can all benefit from your efforts and I appreciate the feedback .
 
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When my starter went bad it did the same thing. Start the bike one time and take the rest of the day off.
 
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