18" or 19"? Advice needed.

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I'm starting to get some stuff together to build a Production Racer with a view to doing BEARS racing, but keeping it roadworthy.

I'm debating whether to build the wheels with 18" rims and would welcome comments from folks who know the pros and cons - 'cos I don't!
I see that some 'decent' 19" tyres are becoming available, so perhaps the main argument for changing isn't as strong as it once was?

All comments gratefully received.
 
16 in front & 17 in rear . :lol: :roll: :x

18" or 19"? Advice needed.


18" or 19"? Advice needed.


18" or 19"? Advice needed.


18" or 19"? Advice needed.


Ignore that , remark . please . :) willum gettum ' Thruxton M'Cycles ' &
Smart P.R. pictures processerised & post . 18 R on the 850 P.R.

looks like the 3.60 K81s history , so 4.10 & 4.25 for traditionalists .
The Caseings a good deal stiffer than years of old . P Williams
' Drifting the bends at full throttle in 4th ' tho thats on the F - 750 .
 
Matt Spencer said:

Seems crazy they would leave the center stand on. Maybe required for the production class?

I think some of the racers like 18in for a better tire selection.
 
Ah, the great tire size debate. Unless you have some empirical data comparing lap times on the same bike with both the 18" and 19", I think it's entirely a rider/owner preference issue. Anyway, shaving a few tenths off a lap time doesn't mean squat to the average street rider, whichever tire gets you those few tenths. My choice: Dunlop GT 501 120/90-18. Good mileage, good rain traction. I don't know what the newer Avon Road Runners are getting for mileage, but the old Super Venoms gave me about 2500 miles. The GT 501s are at least twice that.
 
JimC said:
Ah, the great tire size debate. Unless you have some empirical data comparing lap times on the same bike with both the 18" and 19", I think it's entirely a rider/owner preference issue. Anyway, shaving a few tenths off a lap time doesn't mean squat to the average street rider, whichever tire gets you those few tenths. My choice: Dunlop GT 501 120/90-18. Good mileage, good rain traction. I don't know what the newer Avon Road Runners are getting for mileage, but the old Super Venoms gave me about 2500 miles. The GT 501s are at least twice that.

Except he said he wants to race it (and keep it roadworthy) so tires are more important than for street riders.
 
swooshdave said:
JimC said:
Ah, the great tire size debate. Unless you have some empirical data comparing lap times on the same bike with both the 18" and 19", I think it's entirely a rider/owner preference issue. Anyway, shaving a few tenths off a lap time doesn't mean squat to the average street rider, whichever tire gets you those few tenths. My choice: Dunlop GT 501 120/90-18. Good mileage, good rain traction. I don't know what the newer Avon Road Runners are getting for mileage, but the old Super Venoms gave me about 2500 miles. The GT 501s get at least twice that.

Except he said he wants to race it (and keep it roadworthy) so tires are more important than for street riders.

You are right, Dave. I missed that. My bad!
 
Maybe you should see what the fast guys are using. WM4 front and rear? If so it's 18"s.
 
Well here's a shopping list of Avon Race Tires, which is not the regular ole Avon Tire company, so limited production pricey. For racing around I'd pick the squattest rear 18" in 120 or 130 size, on front a more ballerina 19" 100 or 110 size.
Street use just means don't race around on unheated soft compound or can miss out on their full traction and any sense of economy. Check with vendor for rim width per tire size selected. There is an 18"x 130 that fits on a WM3/2.18" rim.
http://westcoastbritishracing.com/AVON.html
 
I just remembered that I have a WM3/18 Borrani lying around which could work on the back wheel.

Thanks for the photos - proper nostalgia!
The dashing gentlemen in the first photo seem to be suffering from some strange eyebrow-related problem. I hope that doesn't happen to me :wink:

Hobot - I'm with you regarding track tyres on the road. Years ago the local 'heroes' started running cut slicks on their GSXRs... and they all fell off!
They just couldn't get enough heat into them to make them grip.
 
On most 750 race bikes I run a WM4 x 18 rear and WM3 x 18 front. and a Dunlop KR164 rear (130/70) and a KR124a front (110/90), or KR825 (80/80) for the really small front. These tires do require heat to work or will wear quickly. Some folks I know go with a WM3 and a KR124 rear (110/90) and the 825 front. Also a good combo. Skinnier and more lithe.

I haven't run them in many years, but Avon does a couple of different race compounds in their street tire patterns, so you could get the AM26 in a soft or hard racing compound (I would suggest hard for dual-purpose street and track... remember, hard is relative here).

There are race compound tires for 19" wheels - Avon taking the lead here> I have seen bikes shod with 19" Avons go rather quickly so I'm sure they are good.

HTH
 
Holmeslice said:
On most 750 race bikes I run a WM4 x 18 rear and WM3 x 18 front. and a Dunlop KR164 rear (130/70) and a KR124a front (110/90), or KR825 (80/80) for the really small front. These tires do require heat to work or will wear quickly. Some folks I know go with a WM3 and a KR124 rear (110/90) and the 825 front. Also a good combo. Skinnier and more lithe.

I haven't run them in many years, but Avon does a couple of different race compounds in their street tire patterns, so you could get the AM26 in a soft or hard racing compound (I would suggest hard for dual-purpose street and track... remember, hard is relative here).

There are race compound tires for 19" wheels - Avon taking the lead here> I have seen bikes shod with 19" Avons go rather quickly so I'm sure they are good.

HTH

We were all just stalling until Kenny chimed in with the real suggestions. :mrgreen:
 
Here's a Dunlop vintage racing size/compound selection. If I can't lean much d/t the surface so slick - loose or bike fouls first, I prefer fatter tires, if bike won't foul to lean far over, till no room for a knee out, I prefer the narrower tires. If bike and surface combine to make it too easy to spin/skip in leans then bump up rear a size. If ya really have to barge into turns and grit teeth on WOT to try to get a little loose then back off a size. Each tire combo and wear state has a optimal fr/rr air pressure balance that really worth diddling till seems to self steer in ease. When ya get the bike and rear tire set right, ya can about ignore the front tire selection but for braking, as it gets lifted-unloaded out of much traction anyway.

http://www.racedunlop.com/classic.php
 
I'm certainly, er... leaning (ahem) towards the fattest tyres which can be accomodated, as the laws of physics are a little bit against me, being 220lbs and not overweight (just overheight)
I find a larger contact patch highly desirable for some reason :oops:

Thanks for the input so far - much appreciated :)
 
Not so cut and dried as bigger tire = bigger foot print, as that is more a function of bike/pilot mass + air pressure. Even those 190 size balloon tires only print out about 1.5" patch no matter their angle. Easy to see watching various video in rain and smoking tire in drifts. Above some point bigger size is just for more area to spread and radiate heat so less greasy melt to avoid.
 
big and fat is not necessarily better , leaning over with a big fat rear tire dramatically changes the "wheel alignment" for want of a better term, I realized this when first riding some of the big bikes running 190 rear tires, you really have to hang off the bike to get round a corner, in my early Commando days the best tire combo was a 3:60 x 19 K81 on the front and a 4:10 x 19 K81 on the rear. People raced on these and probably still do.
 
B+Bogus said:
I'm starting to get some stuff together to build a Production Racer with a view to doing BEARS racing, but keeping it roadworthy.

I'm debating whether to build the wheels with 18" rims and would welcome comments from folks who know the pros and cons - 'cos I don't!
I see that some 'decent' 19" tyres are becoming available, so perhaps the main argument for changing isn't as strong as it once was?

All comments gratefully received.

If your plan is to build something that is track as well as roadworthy, I would not build a bike around the sticky KR124A, KR164 or AM22/23 racing tires. I have raced with all these tires on my TZ350 and tried them on an RZ350 streetbike and they 'cold tore' because I could not get enough heat into them to bead properly, even with agressive street riding. Also, even though I have not measured, I doubt the AM23 130/65 or KR164 will fit a stock Commando swingarm...maybe others know.

Given the quality of tires today, I'd stick with 19" or skinny 18" for anything that will be street ridden. My $.02.
 
Hobot, thanks for those two links. Good ones.

Speaking of K81s, I learned to ride on those tires. Loved that combo of 19" K81s - 4.10 & 3.60. As Mr. Cummings said - the 3.60 up front was quick steering, made it "lithe." Great tires on account of their predictability. Very forgiving, wide range, when on the edge. Good profile too. That said, they were eclipsed on the track by later designs.

Their open tread blocks, compared to our slick emulating modern designs, are superior if there's going to be debris on the road; you can see the lineage - evolved from the K70 - and harking back to an earlier time when roads were less well paved and just more loose.

Compared to later designs, the wide gaps between those chevron shaped blocks give up surface area of rubber in contact with pavement and then those chevron shaped blocks, lacking "shoulder" to support them, wobble and - on the track - will overheat. IMO, K81s worked better as they wore out, as those blocks wore down closer to the carcass. Yeah, the compound lost something but the improving profile made up for it.
 
Decades ago , the ' R ' caseing in america was configured for 100 mph across death valley in summer on goldwings .Apparently std ones blew in the 100 deg plus temp fully laden at that speed .

Point being , the carcass and the rubber will be of a alien composition in comparison to the originals .The KR race tyres had extremly short sidewalls
and somewhat ridgid caseing . For Stiffness .

The American made ' R ' compoud / case TT100 was more comparable to the KR tyre , as far as stiffness goes .The Std original TT100 being pliable
to the hand , in comparison .

The Triton I ran had a 4.25 18 ' R ' TT100 ( American ) aft and a soft compound KR 76 3.00 19 front .
Predictability and balance was good , driftable and slideable .
The excess of traction on a approx 250 Lb machine allowed outrageous liberties brakeing, and getting the throttle ON after apexing . or ' AT ' apex .
Bike right over , rider uprightish . throttle on the stop and the forces would see the machine come upright under the rider by the time the straight
had been achieved. Hanging of with the machine more upright ( the angle achiecved AT the apex) would let it hunt & weave fractionally , Feedback
its called .

IF the 3.60 is still available , and in the ' R ' type ( on caseing ) they may be adequate , but Id think you could be more aggressive with the larger section tyres.
Snotting the Hondas in the bends , C'do & Bonne , one was always concious of progressively bringing the throttle up Vs traction .The larger front section
allowed ' Leaning ' on the front .Id think progressively , cranked over - youd get better traction , to balance , aft with the 4.25 ( or 5.00 16 :shock: TT100 )


And when the necesity to change lanes instataeneously was required ( I must look where I am going :oops: :lol: ) A line chop of a lanes width in that length
at 60 mph , was attained .The resulting forces saw you fall back on the bike , If you didnt let go .

The Ancient Bonnevil , with 4.10 fore and aft , Irish on Front .Had massive resererves of Front Brake , cranked over . As was demonstrated ' on call '
when required .

The Larger section giveing the reserves and non sensitive though still resonsive steering . Smaller wouldve been better on the Gravle Roads .
Larger rear wouldve allowed more aggressive throttle in bends on tarmac, through increased traction . IF it didnt start it weaveing .



ASPECT RATIOS ,

The modern donut thingos , with the nasty width , give a shorter length / width contact patch . ( so they can switch lanes , steer etc )
The Taller Narrower tyres of days of yore , had longer thinner patches , induceing stability at speed , on the Jaybeck autoroute .

The Dumlop Trigonics were narrow upright to give less rolling resistance , thus increaseing top speed . Most suited to bendy tracks rather than point & squirt
ones . A favourite trick on the Norton approaching the main road , was to put it over into the sweeping left hander at 40 , check clear over your right sholder
and downshift to second . Instantaeneusly hit 60 and maintain trundle through the curve & up onto the dual lane .

When I was stupid enough to sell it , the undecided unsure Honda Boy s attention was riveted , and maintained through the further ' bend swinging ' .
Back at base was no question if he wanted it then , just what he could get it for .
Being Game , where a track provides the oppertunity , If Twisty , allows you to delight in utiliseation of mucho throttle & brakeing cranked over .
Virtually makeing the twisty bits straight , IF you use your open radius bend swinging lines , NOT the point an squirt type where the tyres Not Right Over .

Mad Bruce wore the sides of a KR76 with tread still on the centre , on the street on a B31 . MOST never Wear the sides AT ALL , even on a Track . :? :lol:
 
I think we are over complicating things. That tall (19inch ) skinny rear tire looks kind of wimpy. That is reason enough for me to go for an 18 inch rear wheel. Just plain looks better. And doesn't seem to handle any worse for it.

Stephen Hill
 
Stephen Hill said:
I think we are over complicating things. That tall (19inch ) skinny rear tire looks kind of wimpy. That is reason enough for me to go for an 18 inch rear wheel. Just plain looks better. And doesn't seem to handle any worse for it.

Stephen Hill

Over complicating? Here? :mrgreen:
 
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