RGM pre-Commando belt clutch experiment for P11

Started it. Belt is still in one piece, but, and yeah there's often is a but... Getting it all aligned so it doesn't want to run against the inside rail of the front pulley is my next challenge. Red Synchroflex belt worked pretty good, but this drab green belt and the change in gearbox position is being obstinate.

Turns out it does the same thing running the motor as it does using the kick start with the plugs out. I thought with the engine pulley doing the pulling the results would be different. Not so.

The belt clutch is a heck of a lot more clunky at idle than I expected it to be, but might be because the belt is trying to walk up the inside rail on the front pulley. Hard to tell watching it all from the saddle. However, that is what looks like is going on.

Got some more work to do, but I think I have a handle on it. If not, I'll beat my head against the garage wall a little harder and see if some smarts shake loose.
 
3 hours later... No handle on it. Drum and engine pulley are aligned front to back with a long straight edge, but I'm starting to think not so much relative top to bottom so to speak. Darn belt just keeps riding in toward the motor. I think I'll go beat my head on a few fingers of Vodka.
 
Have you reset the drive chain tension yet? When not using a double adjuster, the drive chain can work for or against you. I had a similar issue with the belt wanting to ride against the outer keeper on my Atlas. I was able to get the belt in a happier spot by fiddling with the rear wheel adjusters/drive chain tension. Ideal? Probably not, my gearbox has some miles on it.
 
Also, I diagnosed a clunking issue by videoing the primary on slow-mo with my iPhone. My belt tension was too lax and picked up on excessive belt-hop with the belt skipping a tooth on the clutch basket.
 
kernel65 said:
Have you reset the drive chain tension yet? When not using a double adjuster, the drive chain can work for or against you. I had a similar issue with the belt wanting to ride against the outer keeper on my Atlas. I was able to get the belt in a happier spot by fiddling with the rear wheel adjusters/drive chain tension. Ideal? Probably not, my gearbox has some miles on it.
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Have not tensioned the rear chain. Once I get the belt to stay put, I'll look into it.

The gearbox adjuster location is the primary issue. It's not at the end of the mounting bolt. It is about 1/3 of the way in on the bolt from the drive side mounting plate. It wants to move the entire gearbox equally, Unfortunately, it's equally splaying the shafts about 1/32" apart. Fine for a chain, not so fine for a belt. I need the mainshaft to converge some with the crankshaft to get it to work. I'll come up with something eventually.
 
Do you have the paint knocked off the garage wall from hitting it with your head ? Ain't it fun! Without a challenge there would be less satisfaction!
 
mean gene said:
Do you have the paint knocked off the garage wall from hitting it with your head ? Ain't it fun! Without a challenge there would be less satisfaction!
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No but that 1.75 liter Vodka bottle is almost empty. Not really

It's an interesting battle. The adjuster doesn't like me. I can lock the timing side up with a lock plate and still can't get the gearbox to where it needs to be using the almost on the drive side adjuster. It moves on the drive side at the top, but very little change in the actual shaft angle due to how the gearbox mounting plates are fastened to the frame. I may have to elongate the drive side lower gearbox mount hole a little if I can get at it in situ. Pulling the gearbox out is last on my list of things to try. Terrible things call for terrible measures.
 
Something is off somewhere. I modified a few things and was able to set 100% pulley alignment or a little convergence which is supposed to make the belt move toward the outside. Neither setting made any difference. The belt still runs up against the inside fence of the engine pulley. The belt ends up in the middle of the clutch pulley. The clutch pulley runs very close to the inner cover, so that is basically in line with the position on the engine pulley. Anyway, I don't like it, but if I run it a little tight (65% twist) it doesn't climb off the inside of the front pulley. The polyurethane belt is a lot stiffer than the rubber belts. Maybe it doesn't twist that easily. If I set it up so it easily twists to 90 degrees, it slips off the front pulley teeth kick starting and tries to climb over the inside of the front pulley when running. Starting to really wonder if the front pulley has a decreased diameter toward the inside to help prevent the belt from trying to get off on the outside, which I guess is worse. I need a set of calipers with longer legs to measure it.

If I had a point to make other than arrgh, it is the 880 length belt puts the clutch a little closer to the center of the P11 clutch dome.

RGM pre-Commando belt clutch experiment for P11


I do not have a positive feeling about taking the bike for a ride, but I probably will do a few laps around the neighborhood so I don't have to push it that far if it takes a poop on me.
 
Hope the efforts prove to be worthwhile. For a holigan bike, it needs a strong primary and clutch, IMO. I always found the stock P11 clutch to be too weak for the application, and prone to slippage.
 
elefantrider said:
Hope the efforts prove to be worthwhile. For a holigan bike, it needs a strong primary and clutch, IMO. I always found the stock P11 clutch to be too weak for the application, and prone to slippage.
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Would be nice if it worked out. The belt running against the inside fence bugs me though. Only thing I did not check too well was the horizontal alignment. Motor or gearbox could be sagging down or pointing up a mm if measured a few feet out. In tight close to the motor the straight edge and a pair of carpenter squares show good against the pulleys. Maybe I'm not channeling my inner anal nutjob well enough. It's a Puzzler.

With the AMC clutch, I did have to run the spring adjusters in deeper to help with slipping. Only reason for the belt is to get away from oil in the primary.
 
Took the P11 around the block. The RGM clutch is a nice clutch. No banging into 1st cold... yet. Very smooth operating and running clutch, but it did not get hot or stressed during the ride. Outer case only got up to 80 F. That said, yeah the belt got tighter in a very short amount of time. It was skipping a tooth on the first cold kick, but stopped doing that after a short period idling and after the ride.

Was a short ride. I never got out of 1st. My bike is geared high and getting into 2nd gear in a 20 mph zone would have been lugging the motor excessively. Not good for my engine. Tomorrow I'll try going a little further and maybe get into 2nd gear, 3rd gear if I'm lucky. lol

I can't believe anyone ever complained about clutch lever pull on a Commando if this clutch is typical. Lever action feels nice to me. Way better than the stock AMC clutch, or the NEB clutch. Clutch stack is probably high relative to the pressure plate to get the easy lever pull. Might not be ideal for a race bike, but it is nice on the street.

Was it worth it? I don't know. Now I'm thinking about trying to fit a TTi box in there for the win. Seriously though, it's an improvement and I like it. No drips on the garage floor, and a clutch that works like it should. Time to order the pricey Synchroflex 20AT10 880 belt.

Even though my bike is a hooligan special, I'm not going to be doing wheelies and such. It feels like a nice handling cruiser with some beans if I need to use them.

I'll be back if I put a TTi box in the P11. I know it won't be a walk in the park for a parts changer like myself. Maybe somebody will get something out of me doing it. Then again probably not.

Stay frosty
 
The RGM clutch looks like a standard Commando diaphram clutch?

Diapharm clutches always seem to have more holding power and are easier to set up. My stock AMC P11 clutch is not strong enough to lift the heavy front wheel, and often crashes when going into first.
 
Schwany said:
Took the P11 around the block. The RGM clutch is a nice clutch. No banging into 1st cold... yet. Very smooth operating and running clutch, but it did not get hot or stressed during the ride. Outer case only got up to 80 F. That said, yeah the belt got tighter in a very short amount of time. It was skipping a tooth on the first cold kick, but stopped doing that after a short period idling and after the ride.

Was a short ride. I never got out of 1st. My bike is geared high and getting into 2nd gear in a 20 mph zone would have been lugging the motor excessively. Not good for my engine. Tomorrow I'll try going a little further and maybe get into 2nd gear, 3rd gear if I'm lucky. lol

I can't believe anyone ever complained about clutch lever pull on a Commando if this clutch is typical. Lever action feels nice to me. Way better than the stock AMC clutch, or the NEB clutch. Clutch stack is probably high relative to the pressure plate to get the easy lever pull. Might not be ideal for a race bike, but it is nice on the street.

Was it worth it? I don't know. Now I'm thinking about trying to fit a TTi box in there for the win. Seriously though, it's an improvement and I like it. No drips on the garage floor, and a clutch that works like it should. Time to order the pricey Synchroflex 20AT10 880 belt.

Even though my bike is a hooligan special, I'm not going to be doing wheelies and such. It feels like a nice handling cruiser with some beans if I need to use them.

I'll be back if I put a TTi box in the P11. I know it won't be a walk in the park for a parts changer like myself. Maybe somebody will get something out of me doing it. Then again probably not.

Stay frosty
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Did you change your gearbox clutch pushrod actuator for a commando one? They have a different ramp I believe?
 
baz said:
Did you change your gearbox clutch pushrod actuator for a commando one? They have a different ramp I believe?
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I bought a Commando push rod actuator lever. It may have a different ramp, but I seriously doubt it is important when using a old AMC mainshaft which is shorter than a Commando mainshaft. I did not use it. My old one looks better made.

My pushrod was the same length as a Commando push rod. I bought a new one from RGM. It's just a 6mm rod he cuts then rounds the ends a little and hardens them. It measures the same length as the pushrod I already had, except my stock push rod is a slightly larger diameter. I probably should have put my old push rod back in but used the new one after I straightened it.

elefantrider said:
The RGM clutch looks like a standard Commando diaphram clutch?

Diapharm clutches always seem to have more holding power and are easier to set up. My stock AMC P11 clutch is not strong enough to lift the heavy front wheel, and often crashes when going into first.
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I could lift the front wheel with my AMC clutch before I put synthetic 0-20 oil in it. That messed it up and all it would do after that is slip if given the slightest amount of throttle. I have a new set of plates for it just in case I might need to use it in the future. :)

The RGM clutch is similar to an after market Commando belt clutch, but it is not the same as a standard Commando clutch. It is Roger's latest engine pulley and drum design more or less. Frictions are Ferodo, steels are steel, and drum is machined for a fully removable wear plate that does not require strange fasteners or whatever is going on in stock Commando clutches. Also makes for adjustment of the stack easier. It's a nice clutch. I hope it holds up.
 
Barnyard primary case ventilation done with round rasp, sandpaper, and scotchbrite. Still need to epoxy little stainless screens on the inside of the caps. I know I can buy the nifty looking full screen jobs, but I might end up with inspections caps made for the Commando that won't work on the P11. I figured I could put some holes in the inspection caps and make them look slightly unique.

RGM pre-Commando belt clutch experiment for P11
 
The fine mesh stainless steel screens make the vents look less shade tree engineered, but I assure you they are shade tree engineered. Brass screens might have been more bespoke, but these have some character.

RGM pre-Commando belt clutch experiment for P11


elefantrider said:
Did RGM ever get back to you?
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Not a word. I sent 4 emails. Not much point in sending more. He was pleasant and responsive pre purchase, but zero after the parts arrived.

You lays down your money and you takes your chances. I have been as pleasant as possible but it's hard to say thanks for sending me the wrong belt with the kit and the product shows some damage from shipping in a way that it makes the vendor feel good. Damage on the pulley teeth had to be filed smooth. If I lived over there, I would have taken it back and got pulleys with unblemished teeth. They will function like they are, but some of the anodizing is gone.

I asked nicely if RGM could source and supply me with an 880 length belt, but I'd already been written off, and didn't hear squat. I looked about as much as I could deal with on google for a reasonably priced Continental 20AT10 880 Synchroflex Gen3 belt, but ended up buying one from Bolton Engineering Products at what must be retail. If doing this on a N15 or P11, the 880 is a good length to work with using this kit. 890 is too long in my opinion, but might be usable with a 5/16" full perimeter spacer. The PolyTech belt (that was made in France) I sourced here in the US will be in my tool bag as a spare. I probably won't see the new Red belt from Bolton for a while. It's coming royal mail which takes forever due to whatever the trending world crisis of the day is.
 
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Schwany said:
The fine mesh stainless steel screens make the vents look less shade tree engineered, but I assure you they are shade tree engineered. Brass screens might have been more bespoke, but these have some character.

RGM pre-Commando belt clutch experiment for P11



Not a word. I sent 4 emails. Not much point in sending more. He was pleasant and responsive pre purchase, but zero after the parts arrived.

You lays down your money and you takes your chances. I have been as pleasant as possible but it's hard to say thanks for sending me the wrong belt with the kit and the product shows some damage from shipping in a way that it makes the vendor feel good. Damage on the pulley teeth had to be filed smooth. If I lived over there, I would have taken it back and got pulleys with unblemished teeth. They will function like they are, but some of the anodizing is gone.

I asked nicely if RGM could source and supply me with an 880 length belt, but I'd already been written off, and didn't hear squat. I looked about as much as I could deal with on google for a reasonably priced Continental 20AT10 880 Synchroflex Gen3 belt, but ended up buying one from Bolton Engineering Products at what must be retail. If doing this on a N15 or P11, the 880 is a good length to work with using this kit. 890 is too long in my opinion, but might be usable with a 5/16" full perimeter spacer. The PolyTech belt (that was made in France) I sourced here in the US will be in my tool bag as a spare. I probably won't see the new Red belt from Bolton for a while. It's coming royal mail which takes forever due to whatever the trending world crisis of the day is.
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Does anyone know whether Roger is now RGM's only employee? I've placed a couple of orders with him lately with slow turnaround and no answer to email questions concerning other parts I may need.


Ed
 
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