The Commando Frame - NOC Roadholder May 2018

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acotrel said:
Eddie,
Is it possible to have a union which is too strong if it is on-side with the management and pointing in the right direction ? How many British companies have Employee Share Ownership Programmes, Productivity Gain-sharing and Self-managed Work Groups. The capitalist system has been proved to be the one which works, perhaps it does not really need to be so exploitive ? One thing I have noticed about British immigrants in Australia, is that when they encounter our industrial system, they almost have a fit. Many become our union reps - so we inherit the same old attitudes in response to the same old problems. ISO 9000 is a key issue - the required documentation should serve as a basis for training and enable workers to self-manage - all that is needed then is sensible leadership.
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Good question Alan. In theory I would suggest that if Unions became ‘too’ aligned, they could lose their role of providing balance. But in practice, I don’t think this is an issue.

In reality, most developed countries have labour laws in place which protect workers against the issues that unions fought for decades ago. Some unions in some companies seem to have evolved their roles very well these days.

But I guess ‘it takes two to tango’ and the unions can only change if the management has. The Japanese have deceloped a far more holistic versions of ‘what’s good for the company’. To them it means what’s good for society, family, individual in that order. Clearly, there is no down side to a union aligning fully with this.

A managemet culture like this allows for an entirely different Union relationship than the old view of ‘max profit for distribution to owners dividends above all else’. This is where unions traditionally had to protect against corners being cut and impacting safety, or workers becoming exploited.
 
These days, in Australia our government has resumed a 'crush the unions policy', so denigration is the norm. We have very poor wages growth, yet the top end of town are doing very well. And still our government is trying to reduce the corporate tax rate, in the hope that this would promote job creation and growth. In every other way they are promoting austerity measures and 'trickle-down' economics. The whole thing looks like a con trick. The simple fact is that we now buy most of our manufactured goods from China, and that is where our jobs have gone. To my mind neoliberal globalised free trade is probably a good thing, however there seems to be no moderation.
 
Al, if you want any chance of those jobs coming back to Oz then surely big business needs to be attracted to doing business there?

Low Corporation taxes are a big part of that.

Ireland has some huge Pharma, IT and service sector giants based there. There is no reasons for this at all other than the fact the government has made it attractive for them to do so. And Ireland’s economy is doing quite well as a result. Even if the EU is fining and punishing the Irish government for doing so!
 
baz said:
My commando has an extra iso under the gearbox,
And also another iso in place of the head steady similar to a norvil head staedy,
I would never repeat never go back to standard isolastics , this is just my opinion of course
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Just curious what is in your opinion the immense advantage of your extra iso under the gearbox?
 
Fast Eddie said:
Which was Ludwig’s point as well. So, semantics aside, you would seem to both agree on the physics.
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No, you have made an incorrect assumption there. A single plane ( 2 dimensional) has no use in engineering until it is referenced to a second plane. You then have x, y and z or height, length and depth which gives 3 dimensions just like in the real world. So you cant assume the 3 isolastic mountings on a Commando are in the same plane because they are 3 dimensional objects. Everything in engineering works in 3 dimensions, scribing block with a surface plate, isometric drawings, CMM, CAD, milling machines, lathes.....
 
nortonspeed said:
Just curious what is in your opinion the immense advantage of your extra iso under the gearbox?
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It makes the bike handle better , there are no rubbers fitted , it just has the mk3 type adjusters , I have owned many norton commandos including a commando in a wideline frame and never been entirely happy with the handling until this one ,
I converted it over twenty years ago after reading about the conversion in classic bike magazine, cheers
 
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Chris ton a bike said:
No, you have made an incorrect assumption there. A single plane ( 2 dimensional) has no use in engineering until it is referenced to a second plane. You then have x, y and z or height, length and depth which gives 3 dimensions just like in the real world. So you cant assume the 3 isolastic mountings on a Commando are in the same plane because they are 3 dimensional objects. Everything in engineering works in 3 dimensions, scribing block with a surface plate, isometric drawings, CMM, CAD, milling machines, lathes.....
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So sorry, my mistake, I thought you had agreed that there was no need for and extra iso. Which was Ludwig’s point.

So it seemed to me that you both agreed with the relevant physics of the situation.

Thanks for clearing it up.
 
I pointed out therewas no need for an extra iso due to the fact that it offered no extra support , as its lever length is only one third of that of the lever length of the head steady. Ludwig seems to be of the opinion a fourth iso is no good because it would not be in the same plane as the other iso mounts, which is not necessarily correct and an entirely different subject to fourth iso? good or bad? maybe best to restrict commenting on subjects your not clear about.
 
Chris ton a bike said:
maybe best to restrict commenting on subjects your not clear about.
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Maybe you’re right.

That’s good going though Chris, on the forum for a couple of days and you’re already telling experts like Ludwig that he’s wrong (you should check out his posts, you might then understand that he knows quite a lot about Cdos) and dictating what people should / should not comment on.
 
What I found interesting and enlightening is Ludwig’s point about stiffness of the anchor for the third (or fourth) isoastic. I would think that in this instance, stiffness would trump leverage.

The most eloquent set up I had seen was one done by Herb Becker where rubber doughnuts were added to the front and rear iso tubes and the head steady rubbers were replaced with an alloy bridge piece bolted to the cylider head and a pair of adjustable Teflon type slider pucks set in the frame where the rubber mounts once were. On another one of Herb’s builds he fabricated an alloy bridge piece that clamped between the frame rails below the gear box and allowed for adjustable Teflon type wear pieces to ride up against the sides of the gearbox cradle.

I don’t recall whether they were three point or four point systems but they made the race bike feel like a magic carpet ride until you came to the end of a straight and realized (holy sh*t) it was a rocket propelled carpet ride.

Again, thanks for the insight Ludwig.
 
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Chris ton a bike said:
The three points A,B and C in the 2 dimensional picture do form a plane because both the picture, or the surface of the picture and a plane are only two dimensional. Problem is a motorcycle is 3 dimensional and is made up of an infinite number of vertical and horizontal planes because it has height, length and depth or x, y and z.
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Please do not consider a picture to be a proper representation of the bike. The Isolastic system may be represented by movements in 2 paralell planes discribed by 3 points each (X, +Y, Z) and (X,-Y,Z) where Y and -Y are lateral coordinate values measured from the mid-plane. If longitudinal rotation (rot_X or "roll") and vertical rotation (rot_Z or "yaw") can be neglected because of the specific engine design, then the two planes collapse into one center plane describing movements (disp_x,0,disp_z, 0, rot_Y,0). As pointed out by Ludwig, this center plane is described by 3 points: P1(X1,0,Z1), P2(X2,0,Z2) and P3(X3,0,Z3). I hope this clarifies the discussion.

-Knut
 
Fast Eddie said:
Al, if you want any chance of those jobs coming back to Oz then surely big business needs to be attracted to doing business there?

Low Corporation taxes are a big part of that.

Ireland has some huge Pharma, IT and service sector giants based there. There is no reasons for this at all other than the fact the government has made it attractive for them to do so. And Ireland’s economy is doing quite well as a result. Even if the EU is fining and punishing the Irish government for doing so!
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In Australia many international corporations pay no tax. Offshore ownership of intellectual property justifies profit-shifting for tax-avoidance purposes. Also when Australian graduates work for corporations, any intellectual property they create is owned by the corporation. However the graduates pay for their own education.
 
Yes, those are the two steadies I was referring to. I now see them one one bike, Doug’s bike. Based on what I am seeing, I am pretty sure Herb set this one up with four (4) isos. The factory front and rear, the Teflon aluminum thingy on the head and the cross brace aluminum/Teflon thingy behind the trans. Thanks 84ok.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Maybe you’re right.

That’s good going though Chris, on the forum for a couple of days and you’re already telling experts like Ludwig that he’s wrong (you should check out his posts, you might then understand that he knows quite a lot about Cdos) and dictating what people should / should not comment on.
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Dictating? No, merely a suggestion. As you suggested I had a look at several past posts but none discussed 2 dimensional planes so i do not see the point of your suggestion unless you are implying more posts + long time membership = expert? which is evidently not the case as you only have to look at several posts on this thread to disprove that assumption.

Peter Williams Commando racers and the beam framed 'monocoque' all got by with only three, 3 dimensional, isolastic mounts - but as he has never posted on here he is obviously no expert.
 
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Chris ton a bike said:
Dictating? No, merely a suggestion. As you suggested I had a look at several past posts but none discussed 2 dimensional planes so i do not see the point of your suggestion unless you are implying more posts + long time membership = expert? which is evidently not the case as you only have to look at several posts on this thread to disprove that assumption.

Peter Williams Commando racers and the beam framed 'monocoque' all got by with only three, 3 dimensional, isolastic mounts - but as he has never posted on here he is obviously no expert.
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Chris, with respect, you seem to be looking for arguments that are not even there.

Regarding my comment on Ludwig, my point is simply that he is a very knowledgable and very well respected Commando expert. If you read his past posts, he has done a lot to change the way his ISOs function, so has clearly invested much thought and experimentation (over high mileage) on the topic. Being new here, you weren’t to know that.

Regarding the physics debate, please take it up with Knut, he seems to know what he’s talking about, and as you’ve already said, I don’t (there is no sarcasm here, Knuts post is way over my head).

I’m not sure why you mentioned PW ‘only’ having 3 ISO’s, as far as I am aware, all bar one poster so far has agreed from the beginning that this is preferable, and even that poster hasn’t yet explained his perceived benefit of the 4th ISO.

Although, having said that, mine only has two...!
 
I am not looking for any any adversarial argument, simply putting forward an argument, as in reasoning to support an idea, and correcting misconceptions on some of my previous posts. For example I comment on a picture originally posted by Ludwig and then mdt-son replies;
mdt-son said:
Please do not consider a picture to be a proper representation of the bike. -Knut
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Which I never did. He then goes on to effectively repeat what I originally said. His comment would have been more appropriately diredted to Ludwig. Go figure.
 
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Baz ( and others .) :
I do not doubt that adding an iso below the gearbox can improve handling ,
but the Commando frame was designed with rider comfort in mind ( “Norton’s unique answer to vibration” , remember ? )
The goal of smoothing out all vibration above 3000rpm can only be acieved with 3 points , and rather loose settings of the isos .
The fact that the swingarm tube is not an integral part of the frame means that the relation between swingarm spindle and headstock can be all over the place .
If you want a good handing Commando , you have to start by lining out the engine craddle –swingarm unit in the frame , something that was definitely not done at the factory .
Which means that you could well end up with 4 different sized mounting collars .
There are many ways to improve the handling ( = keep the rear wheel where it should be ..) , like a better headsteady , locking the swingarm spindle in its tube , adding donuts , tie rods , tighter iso settings, etc .. But IMO , adding a 4th iso goes against the concept of the Commando frame , and can only result in increased vibration .
(probably a small price to pay if knee scratching is your thing ..)
 
Yes my commando does vibrate slightly more but only through the footrests
For me this is a small price to pay and for the bennifets in handling
I suppose if I wanted the extra comfort for example a really long journey then I could undo the clamping bolt and back off the adjuster one turn this takes minutes to do but I would never bother
My engine mounting bolts are reamed to size
I have converted the swing arm to mk3 cotter pin
My swing arm is braced
The frame was set up on a surface plate
The head steady is my own version of a norvil type but with mounts welded to the frame
I have light weight aprillia hubs laced to morrad rims
 
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