Broken Axle

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Messages
82
Country flag
The 850 Commando has eaten it's third rear wheel axle. Something is wrong but I am stumped. The rear wheel is an Atlas which does not have the rubber shock absorbers but I don't think thats the problem. The primary drive is still using the chain. The swingarm appears to be straight the axle assemby seems to be correct. IThe axle breaks right at the end of the thread where the axle bolts into the dummyh axle. Suggestions greatly appreciated.
 
Torque them to spec. Don't use stainless axles and if you ride aggressively or carry a big load put a one piece axle in it. Jim
 
norsa1 said:
The 850 Commando has eaten it's third rear wheel axle. Something is wrong but I am stumped. The rear wheel is an Atlas which does not have the rubber shock absorbers but I don't think thats the problem. The primary drive is still using the chain. The swingarm appears to be straight the axle assemby seems to be correct. IThe axle breaks right at the end of the thread where the axle bolts into the dummyh axle. Suggestions greatly appreciated.

The cush drive axles have a reputation for breaking when with heavier loads, aggressive riding, etc. I've never heard of someone breaking the Atlas style axles. The three bolts should take most of the bending off the axle. I'd suspect something is tweaked. The three bolts are holding up okay?

-Eric
 
Where are you getting these axles? Any chance you've gotten a bunch of inferior ones? (I didn't say from China. I didn't. Nothing wrong with Chinese axles. On your bike, of course.)
 
I'd suspect the bearings going south, rumbling loads onto the stress riser till snapped.

How do these last 3 breakages announce themselves to your notice?
Usauly there is juicy tale far from home.
 
KickStarter said:
I am intrigued ...
How would I put in a one piece axle ?

Scott

Common mod for racing or heavy loads. Basically you drill through the stub axle and use it as a spacer or make a spacer from bar stock. Then you go to the MC breaker and find an axle the right diameter and length. A lot of old dirt bike axles will work. You need to widen the slot in the left side of the swingarm and make it the same width as the slot on the right side. It makes tire changing a little tougher as you then remove the sprocket with the wheel. I have made up spacer sets in the past for people but I don't have the measurements anymore. Jim
 
the widening of swing arm slot makes me pensive, but maybe less than dummy axle fracture rates. Some times I think Norton had its head up Spargthrop's engineering department in damp basement. Remember first Commandos' steering stems.
http://www.buchanan1.net/my_spag.shtml
 
comnoz said:
Common mod for racing or heavy loads. Basically you drill through the stub axle and use it as a spacer or make a spacer from bar stock. Then you go to the MC breaker and find an axle the right diameter and length. A lot of old dirt bike axles will work. You need to widen the slot in the left side of the swingarm and make it the same width as the slot on the right side. It makes tire changing a little tougher as you then remove the sprocket with the wheel. I have made up spacer sets in the past for people but I don't have the measurements anymore. Jim

Jim, thanks for posting that helpful advice. I would like to do this myself. I will measure the right side slot and see what axles are available at my local breakers. How would you widen the slot — by hand or with a milling cutter? I would want to make sure the slot is widened to the same extent top and bottom to ensure the spindle is horizontal in the fork. Would you be confident of using an axle of the existing diameter? It does seem quite thin for a bike like this, and I see that some have chosen to use a 17 mm axle (e.g. from a Honda CB350, I think?).
 
As Mike and Frank, and others in the past have pointed out, it is a fairly
staightforward job to convert a Commando to a one-piece axle of same (9/16")
or slightly larger (17 mm) size. I used to race a Norton Production Racer,
and after breaking two-piece axles twice, did the same. I would warn
against going to a much larger diameter, however, unless you plan to modify
the swinging arm. As the bike progressed from a 750 production class racer
to a 920 Pro-Twins bike, I switched to 18" mag wheels from a TZ-250, and in
the process went to a larger 20 mm rear axle. To do so, I had to enlarge
the adjustment slots in the swinging arm to match. No problem, and it
seemed to work fine, until the swinging arm broke right through the
adjustment slot. It was kind of exciting, but at least I didn't crash. I
ended up makeing a new swinging arm out of rectangular tube, and all was
well from then on. I think it should be fine at 9/16" or 17 mm, but if the
urge to go larger strikes, think about beefing up the swinging arm. And
just to prove that you can never eliminate all risk, I also managed to break
one of the one-piece 9/16" axles during a race at Willow Springs. That's
actually what prompted me to go to the 20 mm axle. Didn't crash that time
either, but it was a wild ride off the track and across the dirt.

Ken Canaga

The axles tend to break where the threads begin. This is a stress riser
because of a fundamental design problem, so changing the manner of making
the threads (or the material) won't solve it. A threaded bolt simply is not
suited to take sideways stress at the the place where the threads begin,
and this is what happens in the axle, especially the cush drive version.
Best practices in aviation and other mechanical fields always have bolted
joints so any bending stress is on the unthreaded portion of the bolt.

Before I decided to convert to a one-piece axle, I mentally tried redesign
the two piece. The best solution would probably be matched tapers in the
axle and dummy axle, with threads only at the end of the axle to hold the
tapers together (some milling machine are designed to hold tools this way).
Steve Shiver's idea of redesigning the parts so the threaded section is
completely inside the dummy axle would also work, especially if the
unthreaded parts of the axle and dummy axle were a light press fit.

But it would be almost impossible to keep tapers or close-fitted
shafts clean enough in the environment of a motorcycle wheel axle.
Changing to a one-piece axle is the easiest solution, but there's not much
interest in it because people who ride sedately seldom have the problem,
and people who ride like hobot eventually tend to put on a different rear
wheel anyway, (as hobot did) because the stock one is so heavy.

Mike Taglieri miket_nyc@verizon.net
 
About most tricky part is to retain speedo drive by drilling out its thin load baring spacer.
 
hobot said:
About most tricky part is to retain speedo drive by drilling out its thin load baring spacer.

OK, gotcha. Hadn't thought about that.
 
Thanks for the info, guys.
I'm sure I'll be back with more questions when I actually get around to doing it.

Scott
 
Thank you for the information gentlemen, it is a design flaw with the threaded end terminating at the end of the dummy axle of course that would be stress line. There was one suggestion to change up the rear wheel to something lighter and uses a one piece axle. That sounds like a conical hub. Has anyone done this and what is involved?

Yes aggressive riding was involved but thankfully the axles broke as low speeds and convenient times so no harrowing story. :lol:
 
Commandos have somewhat of a reputation of breaking these axles.

BSA use almost the same design, and don't.
The BSA ones look to have a much better/tougher grade of steel.

i had the stock standard original axle strip its thread back almost when these things were new - that says to me the axles could have been made out of a much better grade of steel , even the original items were too low spec ??

The thread also looks like it is cut in to the axle - not a rolled thread, which is much stronger...

Cheers.
 
daveh said:
comnoz said:
Common mod for racing or heavy loads. Basically you drill through the stub axle and use it as a spacer or make a spacer from bar stock.

Jim, thanks for posting that helpful advice. I would like to do this myself. I will measure the right side slot and see what axles are available at my local breakers. How would you widen the slot — by hand or with a milling cutter? I would want to make sure the slot is widened to the same extent top and bottom to ensure the spindle is horizontal in the fork. Would you be confident of using an axle of the existing diameter? It does seem quite thin for a bike like this, and I see that some have chosen to use a 17 mm axle (e.g. from a Honda CB350, I think?).

Dave, I have used both diameter axles but I think it will be easier to find a 17 mm axle. 350 Honda or several Yamahas used the right length. It is nice to use a milling machine to widen the swingarm slot but I have done them carefully with a carbide burr on the bike. Clean off the paint and scribe lines before you start.
I have broken several of the stock axles in the past. I have never broken a solid axle. Do not modify an axle by shortening it or cutting threads. The roll and finish at the threads and head is important. Hard washers can help spread the load and make things more rigid. I have modified any Norton that I have planned on putting much time on. I have been known to use them hard and I don't like having to worry about that. Jim
 
I thought I replied to this thread a couple hours ago, but apparently not. I've never heard of anyone breaking the axle in a bolt up hub. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm suspecting something else is wrong with the bike. I believe Mike Taglieri's remarks were about the cush drive rear wheel, in it the axle takes quite a bit of bending load, which shouldn't be happening in the bolt up rear hub.

By the way, my rear axle broke today, probably at 65 to 70 mph, everything is okay. Mine was a "normal" Commando rear axle break, about 110,000 miles on a cush drive rear wheel. I ordered a new axle, I went with a non-stainless since regular steel bolts are typically stronger than stainless. I may eventually go with the one piece rear axle, but for now I think I'll just plan on changing the rear axles every 30,000 miles or so.

-Eric

comnoz said:
daveh said:
comnoz said:
Common mod for racing or heavy loads. Basically you drill through the stub axle and use it as a spacer or make a spacer from bar stock.

Jim, thanks for posting that helpful advice. I would like to do this myself. I will measure the right side slot and see what axles are available at my local breakers. How would you widen the slot — by hand or with a milling cutter? I would want to make sure the slot is widened to the same extent top and bottom to ensure the spindle is horizontal in the fork. Would you be confident of using an axle of the existing diameter? It does seem quite thin for a bike like this, and I see that some have chosen to use a 17 mm axle (e.g. from a Honda CB350, I think?).

Dave, I have used both diameter axles but I think it will be easier to find a 17 mm axle. 350 Honda or several Yamahas used the right length. It is nice to use a milling machine to widen the swingarm slot but I have done them carefully with a carbide burr on the bike. Clean off the paint and scribe lines before you start.
I have broken several of the stock axles in the past. I have never broken a solid axle. Do not modify an axle by shortening it or cutting threads. The roll and finish at the threads and head is important. Hard washers can help spread the load and make things more rigid. I have modified any Norton that I have planned on putting much time on. I have been known to use them hard and I don't like having to worry about that. Jim
 
My first broken axle was on a bike with a bolt up hub. Thought I had a flat tire. My wife and I were at a INOA ralley and a replacement was easily obtained. Jim
 
Thank you for the responses. So I did a little surgery and the dummy axle and the axle when threaded together are in fact sloppy in the threads! WTF. No they are not Chinese, am I mismatching pieces? I like the suggestion to put in a through axle do i have to change the wheel bearings for a different size axle? One of the incidents ( of the three) was fair enough as I slammed into a cut in the road at 100 KPH
 
comnoz said:
Dave, I have used both diameter axles but I think it will be easier to find a 17 mm axle. 350 Honda or several Yamahas used the right length. It is nice to use a milling machine to widen the swingarm slot but I have done them carefully with a carbide burr on the bike. Clean off the paint and scribe lines before you start.
I have broken several of the stock axles in the past. I have never broken a solid axle. Do not modify an axle by shortening it or cutting threads. The roll and finish at the threads and head is important. Hard washers can help spread the load and make things more rigid. I have modified any Norton that I have planned on putting much time on. I have been known to use them hard and I don't like having to worry about that. Jim

Jim — Glad to hear the Honda 350 axle is the right length for the Commando. I can now see why you advise against cutting new threads on an axle. Thanks again! Dave
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top