Need to bore hell

[marshg246]

From time to time, I need Norton or Triumph cylinders bored. Most I would trust "out of the box" are so backlogged that I might not live long enough to get the cylinders back. One that I used did a good job of boring but charged more than agreed and took three times as long as promised. I've written/left VM for two who have never responded.

So, does anyone know anyone reliable in the US that can and will bore Norton (or Triumph) cylinders and simply do a good, on-time job, for a reasonable price?

 

[MichaelB]

Here's a couple of respected shops here in SoCal.
Have no idea what it's like to do mail order with them.
Both are always busy....

Q and E – Engine & Machine Shop / Q&E

Complete engine reconditioning facility. Authorized Wiseco piston distributor. Located in Anaheim, California

qande.com

Vintage Triumph motorcycle engine parts & machine work-Franz and Grubb

Vintage Triumph motorcycle engine specialist, valves and spring kits, cylinder boring, pistons, cylinder head rebuilding, for 500, 650, and 750 twins from 1946-1979. Amazing quality work using the best parts and practices from an experienced engine builder. Located in North Hollywood, California.

www.fagengine.com

 

[t ingermanson]

Dan at F&G is good in Hollywood (as mentioned above), as is Richter Machining in Iowa.

 

[lazyeye6]

Engine Dynamics in Petaluma, CA do stunning and honest work. See their website. Owner is a Brit. His Trident is on display in his shop.
But shipping barrels across country and back must be quite expensive.

 

[seanalex]

http://richtermachining.com +1

 

[bill]

Try halls custom vintage in asheville.
Hallscustomvintage.com

 

[marshg246]

http://richtermachining.com +1

Had a nice talk with him today - giving him a try.

 

[acotrel]

In Australia, regional towns usually have an engine reconditioner who is there to fix farm machinery. The one where I live, is the best out of about 4 machine shops for handling close tolerances. It is probably a similar situation in other countries.

 

[Grandad]

Most machine shops where I live have shut down and everything left won't take on " private " work as there isn't enough money / work from such jobs.

The last chap left in business locally finally retired, in his seventies ... he stayed open for the last few years just to try and help local car and bike enthusiasts keep their stuff running. His price, well we would offer / offer him money but mostly he would refuse and simply charge you with giving him some time to chat and chew the fat and the final part of the price would be to make sure you called in occasionally just to keep him company.

 

[Onder]

There are good shops out there but the wait time is beyond belief and getting them to stay in contact
is equally impossible. They have more work than they can handle and finding help for them is tough.
In a way it would seem a young guy (meaning anyone younger than most of us) could set up and do well because price doesn't seem to be the problem rather maintaining a good quality and delivery.
But of course the overhead of setting up the shop and meeting the monthly nut must be a big problem too.

 

[marshg246]

There are good shops out there but the wait time is beyond belief and getting them to stay in contact
is equally impossible.

Absolutely! Won't throw him under the bus here, but a famous guy in the US simply never learned to under promise and over perform. I waited on him for over three years to fix two crankshaft timing sides. He fixed one and didn't touch the other thinking it was a whole crank! The lathe setup time would have been several minutes and the actual fix on the one he didn't do would have been seconds. The one he did do was more effort and he did a fabulous job. Right now he has a head that is brand new looking that someone else did everything to, but I think the valve seats are not cut right and the exhaust ports have Helicoils. He needs to open the box, spend a few minute deciding what, if anything it needs to be done an give me a price. If acceptable - do it. If not, keep the head. Now waiting six weeks - the promise was one. Of course, I've had to buy another head so I can keep going on the build.

If I were 15 years younger, the lathe, mill, and boring machines I want would be in my shop. At 75, seems like a very bad idea and honestly has seemed bad for the last ten years - way too many hospitals stays for life-threatening problems and every time I think I'm good again, something new happens. My newest battle is supposedly impossible!

Got a pacemaker last year (hate that). As a part of getting one they cut the nerve bundle in the center of your heart so your heart cannot run on its own. For a few months, things were fine. Then my heart decided to start trying to run again on its own. It is signaling for a beat about 20% of the time, but its signals to beat are uncoordinated and crashing with the pacemaker signals. So, as many as 40% of the signals that should cause a beat (heart squeeze) are skipping or just quivering my ventricles. Surgeon doesn't think he can fixit surgically, so I'm on yet another drug.

I've been to the shop once in the last 10 days and that was due to getting a steroid shot that gave me enough go power to slightly overcome the weakness caused by my heart. Of course, doing everything in slow motion. I'm in the middle of three bike builds and one engine/gearbox rebuild - I still have some power so I'll get a little done today, then the steroids will be gone.

 

[t ingermanson]

For every closed shop, there's a handful of machines now sitting idle, that are doing no one any good, as we bemoan that there are no more shops, and the younger folks trying to get into the business are derided as know-nothing hipsters, unfit for ownership of the motorcycles, let alone the machines to keep them all running.

I've looked at picking up proper boring and honing machines (I'm a professional metal fabricator), and they are very expensive when you come across them, even when they've been sitting idle for a decade, and will continue to sit idle for the foreseeable future. It's a real case of "I know what I've got", but the machines will be scrapped when the heirs to the storage unit don't know a Bridgeport from a table saw.

 

[marshg246]

For every closed shop, there's a handful of machines now sitting idle, that are doing no one any good, as we bemoan that there are no more shops, and the younger folks trying to get into the business are derided as know-nothing hipsters, unfit for ownership of the motorcycles, let alone the machines to keep them all running.

I've looked at picking up proper boring and honing machines (I'm a professional metal fabricator), and they are very expensive when you come across them, even when they've been sitting idle for a decade, and will continue to sit idle for the foreseeable future. It's a real case of "I know what I've got", but the machines will be scrapped when the heirs to the storage unit don't know a Bridgeport from a table saw.

And, a local motorcycle shop I talked to bought a boring machine designed for the job for big money that was supposed to make him money. It does a terrible job and he doesn't know how to fix it. He, like me, is not a machinist but does a lot with vintage bikes.

 

[t ingermanson]

And, a local motorcycle shop I talked to bought a boring machine designed for the job for big money that was supposed to make him money. It does a terrible job and he doesn't know how to fix it. He, like me, is not a machinist but does a lot with vintage bikes.

When in doubt, blame the tools! Unfortunately, even the biggest money machines don't do the job themselves and require some amount of expertise in operating them. The price for learning is a pile of scrapped parts and broken tools. Hopefully not customer parts. I work with milling machines and lathes all day, and have done so for over 20 years, but wouldn't call myself a machinist. Still learning and ruining things, but fewer all the time.

 

[marshg246]

When in doubt, blame the tools! Unfortunately, even the biggest money machines don't do the job themselves and require some amount of expertise in operating them. The price for learning is a pile of scrapped parts and broken tools. Hopefully not customer parts. I work with milling machines and lathes all day, and have done so for over 20 years, but wouldn't call myself a machinist. Still learning and ruining things, but fewer all the time.

No doubt, but experience doesn't fix wobble, that takes understanding which parts are bent/worn out/Installed wrong/etc. A wobbly boring head makes a real mess of a bore. Stopping your business and learning the machine that is not working right is generally a bad business choice. He fully expected to learn on bad parts and then start using it to bore as he has the same problem as me - bikes stuck unfinished do to needing boring and having trouble finding help - he's owned that shop for a LONG time and all his contacts for boring have died or retired. He will probably shut down soon as it has become too hard to make a living. He bought the machine so he could offer the service once he was able to properly provide it - I would have been his first outside customer.

I just shipped to Richter Machining. Hoping it works out well. Cost $67.68 to ship to him, will cost more back (I don't pay full shipping cost). His service will cost me $200 for bore/hone/paint which is excellent but considering the shipping it ends up expensive. If the local guy was up and running, his shop is 5 miles away and he would probably do it while I waited or even teach me to do it (I used to in a Triumph shop when I was 18) and charge me for using the equipment.

 

[Richard Tool]

Machining is one of those things that the more you learn the more you realize what you don’t know. I was always fascinated by it . I went to college in the early seventies to become an “ industrial arts “ teacher -
( shop teacher ) . In the metals lab we had , amongst other things, an early numerical control mill . It ran on punch cards and as I recall there was a typewriter like machine that you created the cards on . Could not wait to start learning about it but it never came to be as the “ professor “ had us making tin cookie cutters soldered together with irons - seems my tuition paid for learning the same thing I did in seventh grade . Completely disillusioned I quit and went to work in construction.
Many years later I was left some money when my father died and I bought a small combination lathe / mill and set about trying to learn a little as at that point I had never so much as turned on the power to a lathe or mill .
I quickly realized that there is so much to learn but it has been rewarding and I have barely scratched the surface. To paraphrase my late father in law “ what I know about machining wouldn’t make a pimple on a real machinist’s a_s ! “
One of the axioms seems to be thus - If a project requires 10 operations you will screw it up on the 9th or 10th step ..

One of my early projects was this model steam engine made from castings and raw material -

 

[marshg246]

Machining is one of those things that the more you learn the more you realize what you don’t know. I was always fascinated by it . I went to college in the early seventies to become an “ industrial arts “ teacher -
( shop teacher ) . In the metals lab we had , amongst other things, an early numerical control mill . It ran on punch cards and as I recall there was a typewriter like machine that you created the cards on . Could not wait to start learning about it but it never came to be as the “ professor “ had us making tin cookie cutters soldered together with irons - seems my tuition paid for learning the same thing I did in seventh grade . Completely disillusioned I quit and went to work in construction.
Many years later I was left some money when my father died and I bought a small combination lathe / mill and set about trying to learn a little as at that point I had never so much as turned on the power to a lathe or mill .
I quickly realized that there is so much to learn but it has been rewarding and I have barely scratched the surface. To paraphrase my late father in law “ what I know about machining wouldn’t make a pimple on a real machinist’s a_s ! “
One of the axioms seems to be thus - If a project requires 10 operations you will screw it up on the 9th or 10th step ..

One of my early projects was this model steam engine made from castings and raw material -
View attachment 123466

One big difference today is YouTube. I'm under no delusion that watching is the same as doing, but then there are many things I learned over time watching others work. For instance, when first learning to lay brick, each brick took me 2-3 minutes. One day I went to a construction site and watched an old guy with two young helpers build two fireplace chimneys. He touched a level twice on each, did not strike the joints until finished at the top and then stuck them all as he jacked himself down to the ground. His result looked perfect. That took him about 4 hours, then he moved inside and laid the interior. All the while the helpers keeping mortal and bricks at hand's reach. After than, I was not overly fast, but could get the job done in reasonable time.

Today, it's easier. Cutting Edge Engineering is a husband and wife in AU. He does big one-off machining and welding. He isn't messing with fine alignment but he knows how to end up with precise components. No CNC equipment.

Vintage Machinery. He's a retired life long machinist and generally trys to show the "right" way, not the fast production way. Most of his equipment is very old and restored by him. No CNC equipment.

Blondihacks. She has home level equipment in a small shop and is as much about teaching as doing. When you need to use small equipment for precision jobs, you have a lot more planning and thinking to do. No CNC equipment. Has the cutest little shaper you'll ever see. Has been building a working steam locomotive for a long time with every part made by her.

Then there's the Pakistan shops. Using old crap to do amazing things that no one here would even try I'm sure.

I would like a lathe for one simple task. I have an aluminum drift for just about everything on a Norton, Triumph or BSA and most need to be touched up over time as they get mushroomed. No rocket science or heavy learning needed! And it would be a luxury purchase for sure. I would like a mill for things like installing thread inserts in heads - only a fool would try that with a hand drill or even a low-dollar drill press.

 

[t ingermanson]

No doubt, but experience doesn't fix wobble, that takes understanding which parts are bent/worn out/Installed wrong/etc. A wobbly boring head makes a real mess of a bore. Stopping your business and learning the machine that is not working right is generally a bad business choice. He fully expected to learn on bad parts and then start using it to bore as he has the same problem as me - bikes stuck unfinished do to needing boring and having trouble finding help - he's owned that shop for a LONG time and all his contacts for boring have died or retired. He will probably shut down soon as it has become too hard to make a living. He bought the machine so he could offer the service once he was able to properly provide it - I would have been his first outside customer.

I was giving you just a bit of metal shop ribbing. Of course machines can be no good. Some would argue that (maybe even over) half of running a machine or machine shop is knowing, fixing, and maintaining your machine or shop. It's tough when that all comes at once, but that's the cost of doing business with these machines. Every job on it has to pay for your learning, its maintenance, and the eventual replacement of that machine, and some times a pay day off a new machine might take a while. Bad business practices can involve buying an expensive machine you don't know and expecting it to just print money.

After a bunch of handwringing, I just bought a brand spanking new DRO (digital read out) for my lathe (a new DRO generally is more money than a used lathe with a DRO already on it), spent two days installing it, and ran it for two weeks before it all crapped out with a bad connection on a sending unit! Warranties don't ever cover your labor, so at least a few days were down the toilet, and the machine was not as usable for two weeks. Part of the deal. But... now my lathe has a better DRO, and my parts are better and faster coming off it.

As much as over-the-internet diagnosis is fraught, it sounds like that boring machine is fubar, and needs to be retired. Fortunately, I'm running a fubar boring machine retirement community, and will gladly (and selflessly) take that machine off your buddy's hands and give it the light coat of oil and tender kisses it needs to slowly rust into the ground without ever, ever doing a +.080" ever again.

 

[Richard Tool]

My combo machine is of the lower quality variety. When boring it will cut on retrieving the table on the x axis because the table is being torqued by the lead screw - if the Gibbs are snugged up enough to stop the torquing then the table won’t move. My amateur hack solution is to put pressure on the end of the table with my hand .

 

[acotrel]

I have a friend who is almost the same age as myself. We both began work as technical officers in science fields- he was in hospitals, I was in chemical testing laboratories. We both taught ourselves to drive lathes and mills, and are both into road racing motorcycles. He has run engineering businesses making motorcycle and car parts for decades. I would never do that. When I was young I also loved music. My middle brother is a harpist in a German orchestra. I suggest that making money out of things we love might kill inspiration. I grew to love my job in chemistry which was related to defence engineering. However I would never make or fix motorcycles or their parts, for a living. My life is about building systems which work. I think in total that I might have built 5 motorcycles out of parts. My best effort was a computerised direct reading emission spectrometer which could give a full complete and precise analysis pf copper, aluminium or iron based materials in 24 seconds. My boss almost flipped when he saw it in action. Motorcycles to me, are simply another way of getting a sense of achievement - I always have a project. University professors only know what they have read about or been told - most have almost zero real experience. Sometimes AI is more useful - but it still perpetuates myths.