Trying to find info re battery size to drive an Alton starter motor .

[wheelie]

Positive earth should make no difference to the battery.

As i stated in my original question ,the local battery supplier was sure if the Lithium battery would work with the positive earth and the current charging setup .
He was just being careful and didnt want to sell me a battery that might not have worked .
With the info all you guys have provided me with I can now confidently move forward with this project
I have a bit of time as am still a few months away from riding still whilst recovering from a triple disc spinal fusion .

 

[marshg246]

Hi Greg ,
I appreciate your advice about the Lithium batteries which no doubt comes from experience and thats why I reached out for advice .
You have put my mind at ease and will look into the Mosfet regulators also .
Are they a motorcyle specific regulator and where would I start to look to find one .
Wheelie

Go to my web site, look at the bottom and email me.

 

[wheelie]

Alton recommends a battery with at least185 CCA. I use the Shorai LFX19A4-BS12 to start the motor in an 850 with an Alton kit.
Dimensions are: 5.83”L x 3.39”W x 3.46”H. This tiny battery will fit anywhere and aids in installation of a lot of wiring in
a very tight space. It is expensive at about $220 US. Apparently this battery has a superceeded part number of LFM19A4-BS12
Of course, like oil threads, there are lots of opinions about lithium ion batteries.

My Motobatt QuadFlex battery is the same dimension as the Shorai that you have .
My concern was with the charging system and the reverse polarity but with all the replies you guys have sent me ,I have a plan .
Thanks

 

[wheelie]

IMHO:

Since he has no clue, it would be better to listen to people here with one. Positive/Negative ground has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.

It's true that the original charging system is not perfect for Lithium nor is even the Tri-Spark or others but perfect is not needed. In fact, the original system is just OK for old Lead/Acid and not perfect for AGM or GEL! The modern MOSFET regulators provide much smoother (less electrical "spikes" in the output) so they are better but they slightly undercharge Lithium batteries and that is good in my book. A slightly undercharged Lithium battery has way more "power" than a fully charged Lead/Acid, AGM, or GEL battery. It also means that over charging is much less likely and over charging is dangerous.

Greg , I just did a bit of research about the Mosfet regulator and it can be purchased from the supplier where I am giong to buy the starter kit here in Australia so will include that with the installation .
Thanks

 

[ntst8]

So ,you run an Alton starter fitted and your bike run a negative earth system .
What are the advantages and whats involved with doing that and why did you do that . ?

Leaping in here - It is normally done if you have something wired in which will only run negative earth. In my case i fitted a Motogadget Mo-Unit so had to change to negative earth. When buying an Alton you have to specify whether you want positive or negative earth but Alton can supply instructions on how to change the starter polarity if you change your mind later.

 

[baz]

Leaping in here - It is normally done if you have something wired in which will only run negative earth. In my case i fitted a Motogadget Mo-Unit so had to change to negative earth. When buying an Alton you have to specify whether you want positive or negative earth but Alton can supply instructions on how to change the starter polarity if you change your mind later.

I changed my Alton to negative earth when I did a rewire
Didn't really need to

 

[olympus]

I changed my Alton to negative earth when I did a rewire
Didn't really need to

I concur with Baz, it was just my preference at the time. and to be honest if i was doing it now i would do exactly the same.
Their is no right or wrong polarity, just that some modern replacement components/systems do require negative earth.

 

[wee knock]

i am having starting problems as well. Battery not powerfull enough i think. So what is the outcome of this topic. What is the best battery i can buy and will fit without modification. Leg not strong enough for a kick !!!!!!!

 

[marshg246]

i am having starting problems as well. Battery not powerfull enough i think. So what is the outcome of this topic. What is the best battery i can buy and will fit without modification. Leg not strong enough for a kick !!!!!!!

Not really an answerable question as there are LOTs of factors and you've told us almost nothing.

For e-start I use Shorai LFX18 or LFX14. The LFXxx where xx is larger overkill and where xx is smaller is a bit small.

In every case they must be:

Shorai Extreme Rate Lithium Iron Powersports Battery
or
Shorai Extreme Rate LiFePO4 Powersports Battery
or similar if another brand.


However, if your bike started OK and then didn't it's probably the battery but could be one or more poor connections or any number of other things.

If it never started quickly/easily, then see how it works with jumper cables from your car to you bike battery (don't let the bike touch the car). If it starts right it's most likely the battery, if no, it most likely not the battery.

BTW, almost no battery will "fit without modification". Most modern batteries don't fill the space so the hold-down usually needs modification. The batteries above are quite small.

​

 

[wee knock]

Not really an answerable question as there are LOTs of factors and you've told us almost nothing.

For e-start I use Shorai LFX18 or LFX14. The LFXxx where xx is larger overkill and where xx is smaller is a bit small.

In every case they must be:

Shorai Extreme Rate Lithium Iron Powersports Battery
or
Shorai Extreme Rate LiFePO4 Powersports Battery
or similar if another brand.


However, if your bike started OK and then didn't it's probably the battery but could be one or more poor connections or any number of other things.

If it never started quickly/easily, then see how it works with jumper cables from your car to you bike battery (don't let the bike touch the car). If it starts right it's most likely the battery, if no, it most likely not the battery.

BTW, almost no battery will "fit without modification". Most modern batteries don't fill the space so the hold-down usually needs modification. The batteries above are quite small.

​

thanks for your reply. this is what is fitted Yuasa YTX14AH (L)-BS 12V12AH. Is this sufficient for the 850. I find it flatten quite quickly and no enough oomph.

 

[marshg246]

thanks for your reply. this is what is fitted Yuasa YTX14AH (L)-BS 12V12AH. Is this sufficient for the 850. I find it flatten quite quickly and no enough oomph.

If I remember right the LFX14 is 180 CCA and the LFX18 is 270CCA. Your battery is 210CCA so in theory should be fine. However, the dilemma is that a AGM battery produces no current once the voltage drops to a certain point and their capacity drops off FAST.

On specs alone, you're battery should be fine, but in reality, it won't last nearly as long and the CCA is only when (nearly) fully charged.

AGM: Capacity is the current available (current turns motors, not voltage)

LiFePO4 is harder to define. It's AH is the equivalent, not actual as Lithium batteries recover and other don't much, if any.

If you're do the car jumper test you'll have a much better idea if the battery is your issue or now.

I have a 9 month old AGM battery. I bought 3 at the same time. Two are working fine in non-e-start bikes. The third seems to take a charge, but as soon as you turn the ignition on, the battery basically goes dead. The bike is fine with a different battery. I use AGM for non-e-start bikes because they are cheap and usually work fine - I never use them in e-start bikes. It's not that AGM technology is bad - the one in my car is 14 years old and working fine (German car/German Battery) but a $30-$40 battery probably should not be called high quality!

 

[wee knock]

If I remember right the LFX14 is 180 CCA and the LFX18 is 270CCA. Your battery is 210CCA so in theory should be fine. However, the dilemma is that a AGM battery produces no current once the voltage drops to a certain point and their capacity drops off FAST.

On specs alone, you're battery should be fine, but in reality, it won't last nearly as long and the CCA is only when (nearly) fully charged.

AGM: Capacity is the current available (current turns motors, not voltage)

View attachment 123230

LiFePO4 is harder to define. It's AH is the equivalent, not actual as Lithium batteries recover and other don't much, if any.

If you're do the car jumper test you'll have a much better idea if the battery is your issue or now.

I have a 9 month old AGM battery. I bought 3 at the same time. Two are working fine in non-e-start bikes. The third seems to take a charge, but as soon as you turn the ignition on, the battery basically goes dead. The bike is fine with a different battery. I use AGM for non-e-start bikes because they are cheap and usually work fine - I never use them in e-start bikes. It's not that AGM technology is bad - the one in my car is 14 years old and working fine (German car/German Battery) but a $30-$40 battery probably should not be called high quality!

Thanks again for the reply. I seem to trickle charge my battery all the time. Can i charge my battery with a 12v 6amp car charger. Thank again.

 

[nortonmargie]

I use a Legend Napa AGM EXT15L on a Mark III. It does a good job starting the bike multiple times. I put it on charge the day before I want to ride the bike and top it up after the ride. However, they are NOT long lasting - will start giving trouble 2-3 years after installation. Pays your money, takes your chances...

 

[marshg246]

Thanks again for the reply. I seem to trickle charge my battery all the time. Can i charge my battery with a 12v 6amp car charger. Thank again.

Lead/Acid, AGM, and Gel can although a charger that determines the battery type is best.

I use this as it's good for all batteries: https://a.co/d/eRfbwMr

 

[possm]

I previously had a Yuasa YTX16BS in my Mk3 it was ok but about 3-4 revolutions was its max swapped to a BS BTX20CH [same as a YTX20CHBS] have not had a problem since [18 months use]

 

[jaydee75]

I previously had a Yuasa YTX16BS in my Mk3 it was ok but about 3-4 revolutions was its max swapped to a BS BTX20CH [same as a YTX20CHBS] have not had a problem since [18 months use]

Sounds good. How did you mount that in your Mk3?

 

[possm]

"Sounds good. How did you mount that in your Mk3?"

The YTX16BS and the YTX20CHBS are the same dimensions and fit in the Mk3 with std airbox.

 

[wheelie]

IMHO:

Since he has no clue, it would be better to listen to people here with one. Positive/Negative ground has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.

It's true that the original charging system is not perfect for Lithium nor is even the Tri-Spark or others but perfect is not needed. In fact, the original system is just OK for old Lead/Acid and not perfect for AGM or GEL! The modern MOSFET regulators provide much smoother (less electrical "spikes" in the output) so they are better but they slightly undercharge Lithium batteries and that is good in my book. A slightly undercharged Lithium battery has way more "power" than a fully charged Lead/Acid, AGM, or GEL battery. It also means that over charging is much less likely and over charging is dangerous.

For cNw starters I use the 14ah version of the battery you used. Will start a Commando several times before needing charging including without ever being charged from the box so when used in normal operation, it has no trouble whatever. I do use a Tri-Spark MOSFET regulator, but then I used them on all builds.

Hi Greg . I did read the last line on your website as you had suggested and posted an email to you directly explaining a couple of things .(probably a week ago )
It may have ended up in your junk mail box but will be from wheelie.55 @......
The Alton kit arrived yesterday but i am still a few months away from hopefully being given the allclear to be able to ride again so the fitting not a priority at presnet but at least i now have it .
thanks for your advice anyway .
Dave (Wheelie )

 

[marshg246]

Hi Greg . I did read the last line on your website as you had suggested and posted an email to you directly explaining a couple of things .(probably a week ago )
It may have ended up in your junk mail box but will be from wheelie.55 @......
The Alton kit arrived yesterday but i am still a few months away from hopefully being given the allclear to be able to ride again so the fitting not a priority at presnet but at least i now have it .
thanks for your advice anyway .
Dave (Wheelie )

Nothing in junk, "wheelie" does no exist anywhere in my email system so mystery. Please write again.

 

[DennisMo]

Dave,
I put my Alton on three years ago and I learned that the most important thing is to ensure that you have an electronic ignition system that has a timing map with spark past ATDC when engine rpm is less than say 500 rpm. If you don't, it is easy to shear the anti kickback shear plugs which means pulling it all apart and replacing the shear plugs. For example, if you are stopped at a traffic light and think you are in neutral, but not, and let out the clutch and stall the engine, then the engine can kick back as the rpm goes to zero and thus shear the plugs. I installed a TriSpark and think it is a great product with great support. Something you can decide is how many of the plastic shear dowels to put in. There is capacity for 5. I started by putting three in as recommended by Alton and ended up increasing to 4. I may be wrong but I think that someone might have posted recently that Alton now suggests using 5 shear dowels.
Dennis