Trying to find info re battery size to drive an Alton starter motor .

[wheelie]

Hi ,What i am trying to find out is has anybody had any experience fitting an Alton electric starter conversion kit to a Commando with a centrally mounted oil tank .
My bike is based either on a 69 S or Roadster model which has a centrally mounted oil tank with the battery mounted across the frame directly behind the oil tank .
It has an 850 engine plus a lot of other uprated bits and pieces .
The issue I am having is this placement of the battery severly limits the battery size that can be fitted into this space .
I believe Alton recommend a high output battery of maybe 18 AH .
Currently I am running a Moto Batt Gel matte battery of 8.5 AH with 166 cold cranking amps .
I checked with a local supplier of the Alton kit here in Australia and they doubted this battery would have enough cranking amps to turn the starter motor ( i havent been able to find out how many cranking amps this starter would require ) but could not offer any alternative solutions .
A local battery supplier came up with a Lithium Ion Battery of the same physical dimension of the current battery ( about 14 AH with 220 Cold cranking amps ) but were not sure if this modern type of battery would be compatible with the original positive earth charging system .
This bike is normally a 1 or at most a 2 kick starter but after recent spinal surgery I am a bit reluctant to even attempt to kick start it hence the enquiry re the electric start ..
The way i see it if the 8.5 Ah battery isnt strong enough ,is to change the oil tank and battery case to side mounted style but the price to get these sent out from the UK to Australia would be starting to add up and this isnt a show bike but its get ridden on dirt roads in all weather conditions
or as I normally have a tail bag strapped to the back of the Fastback style seat, make a bracket or holder and carry another battery that is linked to the main battery for starting .
Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.
Wheelie

 

[kommando]

Its the CCA that's key for a starter to turn over, more CCA equals higher speed. Lithium batteries need a charge profile to suit lithium which the old zener will not provide. The AH is the storage capacity, it can be low if you only do a few starts with lots of miles in between. Alton would know the CCA needed.

 

[olympus]

What about speaking directly with Alton in France, Laurent was extremely helpful to me recently

 

[MexicoMike]

I ran a Shorai 18AH with my Alton E-Start for 10 years - worked perfectly with the totally stock charging system initially, later with a Podtronics. Spun the engine effortlessly and very rapidly. MUCH smaller than the standard battery and much lighter; also much MORE expensive! But it lasted longer than any other motorcycle battery I have ever used. When it was finally time to replace, I needed a new batt quickly here in Mexico so bought a standard one last year from the local auto parts store.

 

[lazyeye6]

Alton recommends a battery with at least185 CCA. I use the Shorai LFX19A4-BS12 to start the motor in an 850 with an Alton kit.
Dimensions are: 5.83”L x 3.39”W x 3.46”H. This tiny battery will fit anywhere and aids in installation of a lot of wiring in
a very tight space. It is expensive at about $220 US. Apparently this battery has a superceeded part number of LFM19A4-BS12
Of course, like oil threads, there are lots of opinions about lithium ion batteries.

 

[marshg246]

I ran a Shorai 18AH with my Alton E-Start for 10 years - worked perfectly with the totally stock charging system initially, later with a Podtronics. Spun the engine effortlessly and very rapidly. MUCH smaller than the standard battery and much lighter; also much MORE expensive! But it lasted longer than any other motorcycle battery I have ever used. When it was finally time to replace, I needed a new batt quickly here in Mexico so bought a standard one last year from the local auto parts store.

For cNw starters I use the 14ah version of the battery you used. Will start a Commando several times before needing charging including without ever being charged from the box so when used in normal operation, it has no trouble whatever. I do use a Tri-Spark MOSFET regulator, but then I used them on all builds.

 

[possm]

Check out the dimensions of a YTX20CHBS or as I am currently using in my Mk3 850 a BS BTX20CH, the Mk3 battery is also mounted across the frame and '20CHBS or 20CH [same battery different manufacturer] is 19ah 270 cold cranking.

 

[wheelie]

To everyone who has responded to my question re Battery that fits across the frame behind the oil tank (centre mounted oil tank )that may spin an Alton electric start .
Thanks guys ,I appreciate your advice ,you have given me something to work with and a bit more research to do .
Wheelie
Australia

What about speaking directly with Alton in France, Laurent was extremely helpful to me recently

I have emailed them through the contact details section on their website plus an email from my own email address but haven't received a reply as yet hence i thought i would try you guys .I will give them a few more days and if no response by the weekend may try and give them a call .
There is a guy who has had a lot of experience with fitting various Starter kits to Nortons here in Australia .
He is a member of a Historical Motorcycle club I am in but i havent tracked him down as yet .

 

[wheelie]

Check out the dimensions of a YTX20CHBS or as I am currently using in my Mk3 850 a BS BTX20CH, the Mk3 battery is also mounted across the frame and '20CHBS or 20CH [same battery different manufacturer] is 19ah 270 cold cranking.

I will do but a guessing with the Mk 3 Norton would have made a bigger battery case as by then they were using and electric start requiring a buigger battery where as my 69 model didnt even have blinkers .

 

[wheelie]

Its the CCA that's key for a starter to turn over, more CCA equals higher speed. Lithium batteries need a charge profile to suit lithium which the old zener will not provide. The AH is the storage capacity, it can be low if you only do a few starts with lots of miles in between. Alton would know the CCA needed.

Thanks
The local battery agent was pretty sure that the current charging system wouldnt be compatible with the Lithium batteries and when you throw in a positive earth into the mix ?

 

[batrider]

Positive earth should make no difference to the battery.

 

[marshg246]

Thanks
The local battery agent was pretty sure that the current charging system wouldnt be compatible with the Lithium batteries and when you throw in a positive earth into the mix ?

IMHO:

Since he has no clue, it would be better to listen to people here with one. Positive/Negative ground has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.

It's true that the original charging system is not perfect for Lithium nor is even the Tri-Spark or others but perfect is not needed. In fact, the original system is just OK for old Lead/Acid and not perfect for AGM or GEL! The modern MOSFET regulators provide much smoother (less electrical "spikes" in the output) so they are better but they slightly undercharge Lithium batteries and that is good in my book. A slightly undercharged Lithium battery has way more "power" than a fully charged Lead/Acid, AGM, or GEL battery. It also means that over charging is much less likely and over charging is dangerous.

 

[MexicoMike]

"The local battery agent was pretty sure that the current charging system wouldnt be compatible with the Lithium batteries and when you throw in a positive earth into the mix ?"

Not true. As I said, my Shorai 18AH powered my Alton E-start equipped but otherwise stock '73 Commando (positive earth) for over 10 years with the conventional charging system.

However, Greg is correct that the stock system does NOT optimally charge the Shorai. It will maintain it at around 80-85% of full charge. But that charge level was never an issue over the 10 years it was in the bike. You can purchase a Shorai charger if you are concerned and occasionally plug it in. I never did that. On once occasion I left the ignition on overnight in the garage. When I next went out to the bike, the battery was dead. CONTRARY to Shorai's instructions saying that the only way to revive it was to use the Shorai charger, I connected a normal battery charger. The battery took a charge and then worked fine for 7 more years!

 

[olympus]

To everyone who has responded to my question re Battery that fits across the frame behind the oil tank (centre mounted oil tank )that may spin an Alton electric start .
Thanks guys ,I appreciate your advice ,you have given me something to work with and a bit more research to do .
Wheelie
Australia

I have emailed them through the contact details section on their website plus an email from my own email address but haven't received a reply as yet hence i thought i would try you guys .I will give them a few more days and if no response by the weekend may try and give them a call .
There is a guy who has had a lot of experience with fitting various Starter kits to Nortons here in Australia .
He is a member of a Historical Motorcycle club I am in but i havent tracked him down as yet .

Since Paul passed last year, their response times has been slow, but they will get back to you

 

[olympus]

"The local battery agent was pretty sure that the current charging system wouldnt be compatible with the Lithium batteries and when you throw in a positive earth into the mix ?"

Not true. As I said, my Shorai 18AH powered my Alton E-start equipped but otherwise stock '73 Commando (positive earth) for over 10 years with the conventional charging system.

However, Greg is correct that the stock system does NOT optimally charge the Shorai. It will maintain it at around 80-85% of full charge. But that charge level was never an issue over the 10 years it was in the bike. You can purchase a Shorai charger if you are concerned and occasionally plug it in. I never did that. On once occasion I left the ignition on overnight in the garage. When I next went out to the bike, the battery was dead. CONTRARY to Shorai's instructions saying that the only way to revive it was to use the Shorai charger, I connected a normal battery charger. The battery took a charge and then worked fine for 7 more years!

I have the Yuasa YTX20CHBS battery fitted to mine (which is the one that Alton recommends) I also have a Negative earth system. i have no issue with charging or battery discharge during cranking

 

[possm]

"I will do but a guessing with the Mk 3 Norton would have made a bigger battery case as by then they were using and electric start requiring a bigger battery where as my 69 model didnt even have blinkers ."

I previously owned and restored a '70 S Type, I think there will be room for the 20CHBS.

Alton suggest a YTX20LBS for their starter kit but the LBS is longer [175mm] than the CHBS [150mm]

 

[wheelie]

IMHO:

Since he has no clue, it would be better to listen to people here with one. Positive/Negative ground has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.

It's true that the original charging system is not perfect for Lithium nor is even the Tri-Spark or others but perfect is not needed. In fact, the original system is just OK for old Lead/Acid and not perfect for AGM or GEL! The modern MOSFET regulators provide much smoother (less electrical "spikes" in the output) so they are better but they slightly undercharge Lithium batteries and that is good in my book. A slightly undercharged Lithium battery has way more "power" than a fully charged Lead/Acid, AGM, or GEL battery. It also means that over charging is much less likely and over charging is dangerous.

Hi Greg ,
I appreciate your advice about the Lithium batteries which no doubt comes from experience and thats why I reached out for advice .
You have put my mind at ease and will look into the Mosfet regulators also .
Are they a motorcyle specific regulator and where would I start to look to find one .
Wheelie

 

[wheelie]

Since Paul passed last year, their response times has been slow, but they will get back to you

Ok Thank you for that .

 

[wheelie]

"I will do but a guessing with the Mk 3 Norton would have made a bigger battery case as by then they were using and electric start requiring a bigger battery where as my 69 model didnt even have blinkers ."

I previously owned and restored a '70 S Type, I think there will be room for the 20CHBS.

Alton suggest a YTX20LBS for their starter kit but the LBS is longer [175mm] than the CHBS [150mm]

Current battery that is Motobatt Quad flex 165cca x 8.6 AH which is maximum dimension that will fit into the current battery box .
Its dimensions are 6 inch long ,3.5 wide and 3.75 .
There is a Lithium available with a far higher cranking output but with the info that Greg and you guys have given me I now have something to work with .

 

[wheelie]

I have the Yuasa YTX20CHBS battery fitted to mine (which is the one that Alton recommends) I also have a Negative earth system. i have no issue with charging or battery discharge during cranking

So ,you run an Alton starter fitted and your bike run a negative earth system .
What are the advantages and whats involved with doing that and why did you do that . ?