O2 sensor elimination.

iwilson said:
Hi Rob, I fitted the o2 sensors to my SS with megaphones (custom made with o2 sensor inserts) , when I plugged in an OBDII scantool I could see the ECU adjusting the fuel trims and switching into closed loop mode. Pretty sure someone in the factory told me that it would make use of them if fitted. The only difference was switching off the ECU error reporting if it couldn't find them (ECU would just use its internal fuel maps 100%). Anyway, I've purchased an SC Delta 400 and the bike is getting mapped this week. If you have any factory tips/tricks for getting the most out of the engine I'd very much appreciate a pm/email.
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That's interesting - i'm pretty sure they should be mapped out but perhaps it depends on whether it is SC or Omex. I'm afraid I don't have any magic tips for getting more power out of a 961 - we have a V4 for power, which it has a lot of!
 
Rob Jameson - Norton UK said:
That's interesting - i'm pretty sure they should be mapped out but perhaps it depends on whether it is SC or Omex. I'm afraid I don't have any magic tips for getting more power out of a 961 - we have a V4 for power, which it has a lot of!
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This was the SC, the OBDII plug was disabled when the OMEX was fitted. When I dropped the bike of at the tuner he had a customers supercharged Thruxton waiting its turn on the dyno... Wouldn't say no to a bit more, but that's not really what the bike is about, I think most of the SS's are garage queens in any case.

Fast Eddie said:
That’s quite amazing isn’t it?

I wonder why...

Maybe the cam is designed to suit the restrictive exhaust. If so, it would suggest that a new cam designed for open exhausts would yield improvements, which is the case on Harley’s for example (similarly old school engines).

I doubt we’ll get any of the reputable cam companies to get interested though given the low sales potential.
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I would say so, plus the need to get through emissions testing - never easy with an air cooled engine.
 
Fast Eddie said:
That’s quite amazing isn’t it?

I wonder why...

Maybe the cam is designed to suit the restrictive exhaust. If so, it would suggest that a new cam designed for open exhausts would yield improvements, which is the case on Harley’s for example (similarly old school engines).

I doubt we’ll get any of the reputable cam companies to get interested though given the low sales potential.
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The only person that was interested in the performance potential of the 961 was Matt Capri.
Who knows, maybe the other Matt at CNW may someday decide to take up the challenge?
Or maybe folks like Jim Comstock, or Jim Schmitt.
For some of us, we can only hope.
 
Hello again iwilson , What I was hoping to hear was if the bike was running and idleing good for you with rhe Euro 3 New Omex and map ? The peak HP was not my main concern , because I wonderd about the New Omex upgrade path for my 2014 Sport. If you can get a map and tune developed for the SC Delta 400 that would be great. And good steady idleing etc.. Thanks again.
 
BritTwit said:
The only person that was interested in the performance potential of the 961 was Matt Capri.
Who knows, maybe the other Matt at CNW may someday decide to take up the challenge?
Or maybe folks like Jim Comstock, or Jim Schmitt.
For some of us, we can only hope.
Click to expand...

Ollie Theil at theilmotorsport is perhaps our best bet this side of the pond for stuff like that.
We gotta be realistic though, it is an incredibly small market. 961s are thin on the ground anyway, 961 owners looking for, and prepared to, modify for performance are but a small niche within a small niche !
 
Fast Eddie said:
Ollie Theil at theilmotorsport is perhaps our best bet this side of the pond for stuff like that.
We gotta be realistic though, it is an incredibly small market. 961s are thin on the ground anyway, 961 owners looking for, and prepared to, modify for performance are but a small niche within a small niche !
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True.
Engine mods are only my fall back plan.
A supercharger is my plan A.:rolleyes:
 
iwilson said:
Hi Tony, yes he mentioned that to me as well. I got the impression he was trying to map the bike himself, which would be quite difficult without prior experience and a dyno.
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Quite right. It is a bit of a challenge to do much without a dyno. I did manage to get the bike running reasonably well on the SC Delta 400 with the map supplied by SC. I removed the O2 sensors and cats, and the bike has the SBN silencers. I also had SC unlock the original SC Typhoon ECU, and have been playing with it lately. It works pretty well with the 077 map, but I'm still having some issues with a surge in rpm when I crack the throttle slightly from a closed position. Makes tight corners interesting. But it runs well enough that I haven't found the time to experiment with it. I do plan to eventually go back to the D400 ECU, but I'd like to be sure I've got the original ECU sorted out well enough first. My next step will be to weld in some larger 18 mm bungs into the exhaust pipes so I can use wideband sensors with a WEGO display and data recorder. I do have some experience with using that to tune carbureted bikes. As far as I can tell, no one makes a wideband sensor in the 12 mm size used by the stock narrowband sensors, hence the new bungs. Not as good as dyno tuning, but workable. It will also allow me to use wideband sensors with the D400 and SC data logging package. The D400 allows closed loop control with wideband sensors, but I'm not sure there is much to be gained with that. Mostly I just like the ability to log AFR against throttle position and rpm.

In general, the bike starts easily and mostly idles well, and runs great under power. It does still occasionally have the high idle when warmed up, but not very often, and I suspect it has to do with the idle air control valve. Acts like it suddenly gets lean and the idle speed goes up. Tightening the IACV mounting screws helped a lot. Like a lot of my projects, I just need to find some more time to work on it.

Appreciate you posting your results. Looks like you have found the right tuner. If I had someone like that near me, I'd be using his services.

Ken
 
Rob Jameson - Norton UK said:
That's interesting - i'm pretty sure they should be mapped out but perhaps it depends on whether it is SC or Omex. I'm afraid I don't have any magic tips for getting more power out of a 961 - we have a V4 for power, which it has a lot of!
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Hi Rob , talking bout blanking out the lambda sensor s with the resistor plugs, hows The factory s view on this with euro 3 bikes ? Many thanks Richard
 
Sounds good guys , Has any Euro4 owners had a chance to dyno run their bikes ? It would be nice to know how the new bikes are doing nowadays.
 
TonyA said:
Hello again iwilson , What I was hoping to hear was if the bike was running and idleing good for you with rhe Euro 3 New Omex and map ? The peak HP was not my main concern , because I wonderd about the New Omex upgrade path for my 2014 Sport. If you can get a map and tune developed for the SC Delta 400 that would be great. And good steady idleing etc.. Thanks again.
Click to expand...

I don't think the OMEX is an upgrade so much as Norton just changed ECU suppliers. The OMEX map for what its worth made a couple less hp across the range than the SC. The idle problem seems more of a mechanical than software issue. I'll be fitting the thermal gasket to the tb if it's not already there when I get the bike back.
 
I have heard some others with the Euro3 New Omex have had good things to say . I was being hopeful that it's the way to move forward if I should have ECU trouble etc..
 
I think both ECU's are fine. But the maps inside them are of course generic and developed to ensure the engine will pass the relevant emissions standards plus have a safety margin to ensure longevity. If you want 'perfection' you need a programmable ECU, even a power commander is a compromise. If I can get the idle sorted then job done.
 
iwilson said:
I think both ECU's are fine. But the maps inside them are of course generic and developed to ensure the engine will pass the relevant emissions standards plus have a safety margin to ensure longevity. If you want 'perfection' you need a programmable ECU, even a power commander is a compromise. If I can get the idle sorted then job done.
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If you get the idle issues sorted out, please let us know what changes you had to make. I'll do the same if I find any improvements, but I think your odds of doing so are much better.

KEn
 
Aren't the Euro4 running well ? Idleing stable etc.. Can Euro4 members let us know how its going ?
 
I’m a Euro 4 guy. I’ve not had any of the high idling etc issues at all.

I bought the sensor delete kit, but based on feedback from other Euro 4 guys who tried it and found it made things worse, I’ve never fitted mine.
 

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