Follower scar oil tests (2018)

Status
Not open for further replies.
So after having a cam failure and getting sucked into reading way to much crap about oils, I decided if I wanted to know I better do some more testing.

I had a Timkin scar tester some years ago but never thought it gave me any good valuable info so I put something together to do some testing. It is basically a scar tester that uses a Norton follower instead of a Timkin roller. This gives me line contact instead of point contact so I can use a lot more speed and load without causing an instant scar like the Timkin tester did. That plus the ability to monitor oil temps gives me an idea of the friction.

Here is what I built. Not real pretty but it works rather well.

View attachment 6244

View attachment 6245


Here are the three oils I tested

View attachment 6246

Before each test I installed a new race on the arbor and resurfaced the follower with a 600 grit finish. Two ounces of oil were measured into the reservoir.
The first five minutes of each run were done with low weight on the follower to allow the parts to mate. Then the load was increased to full load which places approximately 150 lbs of pressure on the follower. I reported the temperature every five minutes and stopped at 30 minutes unless the oil failed sooner.

The first test is VR1 20-50
The second test is Royal Purple XPR 20-50
The third test is Mobil 1 20-50 V-twin
The fourth test was VR1 again.

You VR fans might want to change the channel.



The clear winner as far as friction goes was the XPR

For the next test I want to raise the temp of the XPR and make sure it still holds the load at 200 degrees like the Mobil 1 did.

The I have some Spectro v-twin, some Rotella and some Yamalube to test next and some Motul 20-60 on order.
 
Jim, I worked for Torco for a number of years, we made products for most of the motorcycle industry over the years. The Zinc additives come in various qualities, they are not all the same. Some work at lower temps some higher. We had a Falex tester, something similar to what you used in your test. But with oil temp and the temp of the part being tested. I've been away from the oil business for some years now so I'm not up on the latest stuff. The reason the temp on M1 oil test may have been coming down is the cam follower may have gotten hot enough to activate the zinc reducing the temp of the follower and the oil sample.

Torco's MPZ product had two types of Zinc in it. One would activate at 350 F and one at 500 F. That's the temperature of the part not the oil. The oil temp could have been 250 to 270 F. Pretty normal for a race engine. Too much Zinc and phosphors can lead to deposits, sticky rings etc. Valvoline used to make a product called Indy Ford racing oil. It was not sold at the retail level but was available to certain sponsored racers. The load carriers in that product were very high to protect cams and followers. Deposits were not of concern because of the short time it was used. Before NASCAR went to roller cam followers PSI on the nose of the cam was as high as 700 to 1000 PSI. I'm surprised the cam lasted as long as they did.

I'm sure I'm not saying anything you don't already know. Maybe roller cam followers would solve the Norton cam wear issue?
 
Jim, I worked for Torco for a number of years, we made products for most of the motorcycle industry over the years. The Zinc additives come in various qualities, they are not all the same. Some work at lower temps some higher. We had a Falex tester, something similar to what you used in your test. But with oil temp and the temp of the part being tested. I've been away from the oil business for some years now so I'm not up on the latest stuff. The reason the temp on M1 oil test may have been coming down is the cam follower may have gotten hot enough to activate the zinc reducing the temp of the follower and the oil sample.

Torco's MPZ product had two types of Zinc in it. One would activate at 350 F and one at 500 F. That's the temperature of the part not the oil. The oil temp could have been 250 to 270 F. Pretty normal for a race engine. Too much Zinc and phosphors can lead to deposits, sticky rings etc. Valvoline used to make a product called Indy Ford racing oil. It was not sold at the retail level but was available to certain sponsored racers. The load carriers in that product were very high to protect cams and followers. Deposits were not of concern because of the short time it was used. Before NASCAR went to roller cam followers PSI on the nose of the cam was as high as 700 to 1000 PSI. I'm surprised the cam lasted as long as they did.

I'm sure I'm not saying anything you don't already know. Maybe roller cam followers would solve the Norton cam wear issue?

I appreciate the info.

My new setup monitors the temp of both the oil and the follower.

I have also noted that the failure point of the oil film is not affected much by oil temps between ~200 and 350 degrees -which is as far as I have tested.

I know now that the failure of my cam was due to 1 soft follower out of the 4. I do not think there were any oil issues either with the Mobil 1 or the Royal Purple I had been using.

I have run the cam in my engine for over 100,000 miles in the past so I know it its possible if everything is right to get good results with the standard setup. I doubt that roller followers would do better without a total re-design of the barrel, cam and maybe even the head. There just is not enough room to use roller followers that are large enough to give good durability.
 
Jim, we would probably find value even if it was what you had for breakfast.
You have mail.
 
If you guys are finding value in what I am doing and want to contribute a little to help offset the costs -then I will gladly accept paypal at my e-mail address. Jim
Money sent a couple of days ago. Thanks, Jim, for testing that Castrol v-Twin 4T. Looks like I'll be paying more for oil in the future.

Best deals I cd find on eBay today (delivered prices) :
Next to the per liter price, I put the Follower pressure limit as seen in the tests, in parentheses, and next to that, the dollar/liter per pound of pressure, in square brackets.
(Edited 8/28 to update some pricing)

112630 Mobil 1 20W-50 (from Pep Boys online!) $7.36/qt = 6.965/Liter (194) [$.0359]
822347 Valvoline VR1 Racing $8.663/qt = 8.20/L (118) [$.0695]
06116 Castrol V-Twin 4T $9.79/qt = 9.27/L (171) [$.0542]
02707 Gibbs Driven 15W-50 Synth (12 Qt case) $12.75/qt = 12.07/L (120) [$.1052]
6051 Royal XPR 20W-50 $12.75/qt= 12.07/L (199+, 205 estimated) [$.0588]
104245 Motul 300V 20W-60 $33.00/2 liter can = 16.50/L (199+, 215 estimated) [$.0767]

19-3044 or R.HD25 Spectro conventional (12 qt case) $7.96/qt = $7.534/Liter (138.4) [$.0544]
 
Last edited:
I'm runnnig a Dutch oil, Putoline Sport 4 20w-50 (https://api.kroon-oil.com/pdf/en/in...XP/PI-PM3012-technomoto-sport-4-20w-50-EN.pdf), partly at least since it's easilly available at a reasonable price. I asked their tech support about the Zinc levels, and recieved this reply:

"Thanks for your lubricant question for your Norton Commando Engine.
Our Putoline Sport 4 20W-50 product has a Zinc level from 910 ppm.
This product has the actual API SL specification, in combination with the JASP MA2 specification. This product must do the job normally very good.
The Zinc level is only an (old) indication for the wear performance level. You can reach also a very good wear performance level with other chemical elements or combinations from them.
I have seen a lot of “rumors” on internet from “experts” and they talk always how important a high Zinc percentage is. This is for a big part not thru. There are more chemical elements and base oils available to reach the same or better results, so don’t focus om 1 elementJ!.
A modern engine oil is a complex liquid which must do a lot of things. To product the engine for wear is an important one, but there is much more."

/Steve.
 
Money sent a couple of days ago. Thanks, Jim, for testing that Castrol v-Twin 4T. Looks like I'll be paying more for oil in the future.

Best deals I cd find on eBay today (delivered prices) :
Next to the per liter price, I put the Follower pressure limit as seen in the tests, in parentheses, and next to that, the dollar/liter per pound of pressure, in square brackets.

112630 Mobil 1 20W-50 (from Pep Boys online!) $7.36/qt = 6.965/Liter (194) [$.0359]
822347 Valvoline VR1 Racing $8.663/qt = 8.20/L (118) [$.0695]
06116 Castrol V-Twin 4T $9.79/qt = 9.27/L (171) [$.0542]
02707 Gibbs Driven 15W-50 Synth (12 Qt case) $13.33/qt = 12.62/L (120) [$.1052]
6051 Royal XPR 20W-50 $13.705/qt= 12.97/L (199+, 205 estimated) [$.0633]
104245 Motul 300V 20W-60 $38.98/2 liter can = 19.49/L (199+, 215 estimated) [$.0906]

I cd not figure out which Spectro was tested...

Here is the Spectro I tested.

Mobil 1 is likely to be the best choice so far when you also consider the price and availability. It is more than capable for 99% of Nortons.

I will likely be going to the Motul 20-60 in my new motor due to the fact that it holds it's viscosity to a higher temp then the Mobil 1 or the Royal Purple.
That could be the difference on those 100 mile, 100 mph runs in 105 degree heat...

Of course this could always change as I do more oil tests.

Follower scar oil tests (2018)
 
If you guys are finding value in what I am doing and want to contribute a little to help offset the costs -then I will gladly accept paypal at my e-mail address. Jim
Done....... looking forward to the bean oil which is "in the mail"
 
Thanks for the donations guys.

Those races that last for 1 test go for $4.15 each when purchased 100 at a time.
 
Sent a few 'bob' thanks for putting your time into this testing :)
 
I loaded up some Rotella T 15-40 conventional oil for a spin this morning.



Definitely not a low friction oil. It made for the highest temperatures yet but it did an amazing job of handling the load even at the extreme temp.
 

Attachments

  • Follower scar oil tests (2018)
    Rotella T 15W40 CJ4 SM conventional.jpg
    91.1 KB · Views: 771
Last edited:
Here is the Spectro I tested.

I've revised my earlier post to include this conventional oil. Looks like Spectro also has semi- and full-synthetic products. I'm gonna send you a quart of their full synth, branded for BMW (EDIT: This is no longer true; BMW has switched suppliers)
And yes, Mobil 1 seems the clear winner for "value". Nothing else tested here so far is even close.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top