Why Norton should definitely continue to build the 961

Al's#5 said:
Well I had mine out for a ride yesterday and came back buzzing! Fast sweeping roads out, tight Twisties across to fast, straight road home. Faultless! As mentioned before, only the exhausts modified.
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You definitely got a Monday bike and not a Friday one Al. Reckon mine must have been a Wednesday bike and she’s running sweetly at the moment. Long may the buzz continue!
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Madnorton (we have cross-posts, answering one before reading the last)

You sound like you have an ‘in‘ to what is happening in Solihull, from your last sentence above.

Honest questions; not written with sarcasm - Are the management at Solihull just the wrong people for the job and showing some level of incompetence, or are TVS holding them back in some way or providing poor direction? - and - Can you answer that without making any assumptions?
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You don't need to be Richard Branson to work it out or have 'in' at Solihull. There has always been involvement from India, it was they who were behind the cease and desist letters and not Solihull. The V4 side has gone quiet, and the emphasis on 961 spares and new bikes seems to be the forerunner now it seems. The ANIL source newsletter gave a good outline from ZFD visit to Solihul, the 'pressure' has been promulgated in the Indian press, several announcements of release dates of models that have come and long gone. These releases have in the past been contrary to what was coming from Solihull. Sadly, there seems to more released in the Indian press and from TVS Motor website than there does the Solihull website, none of which has helped. When you are munching through 100 million like a tramp on chips, then there is always going pressure to produce something. If you read other Norton news from more of the more obscure places it is eye opening, you don't need to be a mathematician to add it up, or even find out that TVS are not into making money from bikes but TM licensing - it says so on their corporate website.

Personally, the V4 was a dead end, why they followed it only they know. The improved 961 model and spares situation should have been priority - the design was a seller, the Atlas and Ranger next - even TVS produce low capacity bikes for trail work, for them to help on the Atlas and Ranger would not have been too much of a step up for them.

Simple things were missed, India could have run with a model plan whilst they were looking for a new building, and then handed the model plan over, I doubt this was done, but it would have saved 18 months.
 
Madnorton said:
You don't need to be Richard Branson to work it out or have 'in' at Solihull. There has always been involvement from India, it was they who were behind the cease and desist letters and not Solihull. The V4 side has gone quiet, and the emphasis on 961 spares and new bikes seems to be the forerunner now it seems. The ANIL source newsletter gave a good outline from ZFD visit to Solihul, the 'pressure' has been promulgated in the Indian press, several announcements of release dates of models that have come and long gone. These releases have in the past been contrary to what was coming from Solihull. Sadly, there seems to more released in the Indian press and from TVS Motor website than there does the Solihull website, none of which has helped. When you are munching through 100 million like a tramp on chips, then there is always going pressure to produce something. If you read other Norton news from more of the more obscure places it is eye opening, you don't need to be a mathematician to add it up, or even find out that TVS are not into making money from bikes but TM licensing - it says so on their corporate website.

Personally, the V4 was a dead end, why they followed it only they know. The improved 961 model and spares situation should have been priority - the design was a seller, the Atlas and Ranger next - even TVS produce low capacity bikes for trail work, for them to help on the Atlas and Ranger would not have been too much of a step up for them.

Simple things were missed, India could have run with a model plan whilst they were looking for a new building, and then handed the model plan over, I doubt this was done, but it would have saved 18 months.
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Very interesting indeed . I have never heard any of this before .
 
Voodooo said:
I’d say the 961 is more rare than a Vincent black shadow. But the 961 is without the fame.
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Vincents are an odd duck.
In the 60s they were still the world's fastest Production motorcycle and would retain that title for many years. Most motorcyclists back then knew about them.
I was 13 years old in 1967 with a Honda 90 to ride, but I knew of the Vincent and desperately wanted one.
Had there been any in our area, that would have been a great time to buy one. In spite of the fame, with the company bankrupt and a very shakey parts supply, prices were low. Some of the older fellows on the Vincent site bought their bikes in the 60s for ten to fifteen pounds.
When a fairly reliable parts supply developed, prices started to rise. And they are still rising.
 
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Madnorton said:
The improved 961 model and spares situation should have been priority - the design was a seller
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I'm not trying to be negative here but there is no proof of this. There are no numbers to show what sold. Everyone speculates and we have done more than most to find the information And before you come back at me we are in a state that sold more than its fair share even though the numbers reported by the dealers we spoke to are low. I think Richard-7 posted that only 60 bikes went to Canada. We are one of the few shops that work on them, even the selling dealers won't touch them. We have seen 14 customers' bikes plus we own two.


To what Voodoo said. I think we will find that the "original" 961 might indeed be a rare motorcycle. I hope so as it increases the value of what many of our customers overpaid originally.
 
worntorn said:
Vincents are an odd duck.
In the 60s they were still the world's fastest Production motorcycle and would retain that title for many years. Most motorcyclists back then knew about them.
I was 13 years old in 1967 with a Honda 90 to ride, but I knew of the Vincent and desperately wanted one.
Had there been any in our area, that would have been a great time to buy one. In spite of the fame, with the company bankrupt and a very shakey parts supply, prices were low. Some of the older fellows on the Vincent site bought their bikes in the 60s for ten to fifteen pounds.
When a fairly reliable parts supply developed, prices started to rise. And they are still rising.
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Yeah but a 961 doesn’t even compare to the Vincent
 
City Garage said:
I'm not trying to be negative here but there is no proof of this. There are no numbers to show what sold. Everyone speculates and we have done more than most to find the information And before you come back at me we are in a state that sold more than its fair share even though the numbers reported by the dealers we spoke to are low. I think Richard-7 posted that only 60 bikes went to Canada. We are one of the few shops that work on them, even the selling dealers won't touch them. We have seen 14 customers' bikes plus we own two.


To what Voodoo said. I think we will find that the "original" 961 might indeed be a rare motorcycle. I hope so as it increases the value of what many of our customers overpaid originally.
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I hope they hold or go up in value. I’m sure my Dominator Naked will be worth more than my commando SF.

But like everything, it all depends on how much someone is willing to pay. And at a auction it depends on the bidders.
 
TonyA said:
Very interesting indeed . I have never heard any of this before .
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It can be found, but who looks beyond the first page of google results these days or searches using something other than Norton - they are in effect a subsidiary themselves with a parent. Some of it has even been shown as attachments in other threads on this forum.
 
Madnorton said:
You don't need to be Richard Branson to work it out or have 'in' at Solihull. There has always been involvement from India, it was they who were behind the cease and desist letters and not Solihull. The V4 side has gone quiet, and the emphasis on 961 spares and new bikes seems to be the forerunner now it seems. The ANIL source newsletter gave a good outline from ZFD visit to Solihul, the 'pressure' has been promulgated in the Indian press, several announcements of release dates of models that have come and long gone. These releases have in the past been contrary to what was coming from Solihull. Sadly, there seems to more released in the Indian press and from TVS Motor website than there does the Solihull website, none of which has helped. When you are munching through 100 million like a tramp on chips, then there is always going pressure to produce something. If you read other Norton news from more of the more obscure places it is eye opening, you don't need to be a mathematician to add it up, or even find out that TVS are not into making money from bikes but TM licensing - it says so on their corporate website.

Personally, the V4 was a dead end, why they followed it only they know. The improved 961 model and spares situation should have been priority - the design was a seller, the Atlas and Ranger next - even TVS produce low capacity bikes for trail work, for them to help on the Atlas and Ranger would not have been too much of a step up for them.

Simple things were missed, India could have run with a model plan whilst they were looking for a new building, and then handed the model plan over, I doubt this was done, but it would have saved 18 months.
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Interesting stuff; you raise issues that I don’t think we’ve given much thought to.

The cease and desist letters a lot of the owners clubs etc. got were a clumsy (at best) way of protecting the trademark I guess. As I understand it, most just had the Norton logo on their home page although others were selling merchandise etc. Suspect TVS, without a real understanding of the Norton faithful, just hired a law firm to target anybody and everybody using anything related to Norton. Understandable - maybe, counterproductive - almost certainly.

Not sure you could say the (re-engineered) V4 side has gone quiet, they seem to be the only machines with any profile; Norton are at least taking expressions of interest on their website. No doubt they will be at the NEC again, where you would think there would have to be some solid announcements. Don’t really see the 961 being raised in profile (beyond the legacy bikes) unless I’ve missed something - hope I have!

No doubt Solihull are under pressure, both internal and from TVS. I’m guessing that failed targets/deadlines are going to occur though with the significant task of setting up for business - weren’t the uk locked down for months and months on end with covid, not to mention related logistical implications.

I know (less than) nothing about trademark licensing beyond the fact that monetising them can be very profitable. But can we really say that TVS are ‘not into making money from bikes’ - is’nt that their core business in India? They have spent a LOT of money setting up the facility in Solihull and brought in some significant personnel. Who knows what TVS’s (behind closed doors) long term plan is, but surely they aim to support Solihull in the endeavour of building Norton motorcycles? The more successful the marque the more profitable the TM?

Interesting stuff indeed!
 
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Fast Eddie said:
I would assume the same. Trouble is, they ain’t sold non yit !!

Does making stuff but not selling it count praps ??
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TVS' largest motorcycle models currently advertised, e.g., the Apache RR 310, are all built to order only. I think that tells a great deal about where TVS is heading with what once was Norton Motorcycle Company. The V4 line-up will most likely be built to orders only.
Series production of any model in the UK? That's wishful thinking.

- Knut
 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
weren’t the uk locked down for months and months on end with covid, not to mention related logistical implications.
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I’m sure that will be / is being used as an excuse, but it’s a poor one IMO.

Yes that’s what was communicated for months and months. But why? All other automotive and manufacturing companies locked down for a MUCH shorter period of time. Nortons extended COVID lock down was Nortons choice.

And there’s no reason why that time couldn’t have been used to strategise, design, prototype, etc, etc.
 
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mdt-son said:
TVS' largest motorcycle models currently advertised, e.g., the Apache RR 310, are all built to order only. I think that tells a great deal about where TVS is heading with what once was Norton Motorcycle Company. The V4 line-up will most likely be built to orders only.
Series production of any model in the UK? That's wishful thinking.

- Knut
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I know the goalposts seem to be changing daily (though of course 99% of 'news' appears to be speculation), but all first reports when Solihull was bought mentioned 8,000 units a year (with the capacity to expand)...

Oh, to be a fly on the wall :)
 
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